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Fully armed loiter time?


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  • 2 weeks later...
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On 1/28/2021 at 1:04 PM, UnlikelyGM said:

Add ~30 minutes if loaded with a robbie tank instead of gun ammunition.

"robbie tank" might refer to this (not sure where the term "robbie" comes from.):
 

https://robertsonfuelsystems.com/defense/combo-pak-internal-auxiliary-fuel-system-iafs/


Edited by DanielNL
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2 hours ago, cordite said:

Not sure if serious...

 

Also not sure why they’d have a RFQ button. 

 

RFQ? Where did you read that?

And what should not be serious here? That Website looks quite legit to me.

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DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.)

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4 hours ago, DanielNL said:

not sure where the term "robbie" comes from

 

"Robbie" comes from the company that makes the equipment: Robertson Fuel Systems.

 

3 hours ago, cordite said:

Also not sure why they’d have a RFQ button. 

 

If you are referring to the Request For Quote button, it's because a lot of different countries fly the Apache, which are all potential customers for purchasing Robertson's products.  This includes future operators of the Apache, such as Australia.  Not to mention all the other products Robertson sells for other platforms.


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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/6/2021 at 8:07 PM, cordite said:

Yes, but you’d think the small number of potential customers would already have their number, or get it upon committing to the Apache platform.

Not necessarily. A lot of contractors keep options open for new potential customers, and being that they aren't a primary distributor (such as Boeing for OEM parts, materials and support) they may not have direct customer interaction from the onset of a contract with the manufacturer. Not every country operates in the same way or capacity as the US DoD. 

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If I remember right, the Robby tanks add another 150 gallons of fuel and allows for 300 rounds of ammo.

 

What a lot of people don't realize is just how fast this aircraft goes from Empty weight to MGW in a hurry. A full tank of gas, full ammo mag, and loaded pylons with crew can get you right up there, and were talking single digit margins for power. The Robby tanks came into prevalence when operations in Afghanistan really came into play- high density altitude coupled with the need for loiter times as well as adequate time on station with enough munitions to do work, there had to be a trade off. They eliminated the need for the FCR and pulled that off...followed by the Robby, and utilization of single station pylons on the mounts. 1 pylon each side, 1 would have 2 missiles, and the other would have a half full pod of rockets. That saved weight and increased loiter times. 

 

IF, and ONLY IF, ED does a good job recreating performance numbers and curves, you're going to see just how heavy and sluggish this thing gets at full payload. Add high density altitude to it and you can get yourself backed into a corner VERY quickly. 

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Yep, an Afghanistan map would be a good challenge for us chopper pilots.

It would also be good for comparing the MI-24 and Apache when combating non missile armed insurgence.

You can imagine how the introduction of the stinger in the 80s Afghan war really gave the Russians a headache.   


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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On 2/26/2021 at 1:37 PM, ApacheDoctor said:

If I remember right, the Robby tanks add another 150 gallons of fuel and allows for 300 rounds of ammo.

 

What a lot of people don't realize is just how fast this aircraft goes from Empty weight to MGW in a hurry. A full tank of gas, full ammo mag, and loaded pylons with crew can get you right up there, and were talking single digit margins for power. The Robby tanks came into prevalence when operations in Afghanistan really came into play- high density altitude coupled with the need for loiter times as well as adequate time on station with enough munitions to do work, there had to be a trade off. They eliminated the need for the FCR and pulled that off...followed by the Robby, and utilization of single station pylons on the mounts. 1 pylon each side, 1 would have 2 missiles, and the other would have a half full pod of rockets. That saved weight and increased loiter times. 

 

IF, and ONLY IF, ED does a good job recreating performance numbers and curves, you're going to see just how heavy and sluggish this thing gets at full payload. Add high density altitude to it and you can get yourself backed into a corner VERY quickly. 

Interesting, thanks for the insight. Plus there’s that unfortunate video of the Apache doing a high altitude Return to target and bouncing the aircraft off the ground. 

 

 

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On 2/26/2021 at 10:37 AM, ApacheDoctor said:

If I remember right, the Robby tanks add another 150 gallons of fuel and allows for 300 rounds of ammo.

 

What a lot of people don't realize is just how fast this aircraft goes from Empty weight to MGW in a hurry. A full tank of gas, full ammo mag, and loaded pylons with crew can get you right up there, and were talking single digit margins for power. The Robby tanks came into prevalence when operations in Afghanistan really came into play- high density altitude coupled with the need for loiter times as well as adequate time on station with enough munitions to do work, there had to be a trade off. They eliminated the need for the FCR and pulled that off...followed by the Robby, and utilization of single station pylons on the mounts. 1 pylon each side, 1 would have 2 missiles, and the other would have a half full pod of rockets. That saved weight and increased loiter times. 

 

IF, and ONLY IF, ED does a good job recreating performance numbers and curves, you're going to see just how heavy and sluggish this thing gets at full payload. Add high density altitude to it and you can get yourself backed into a corner VERY quickly. 

When looking at the MGW of the apache comparing it to the KA-50 we have, The KA-50 has 2x 2400 ShHP motors. D model apache is running 2x 1890 ShHP (uprated from the 1690 ShHP motors of the A).

 

Comparison of power vs. max takeoff weight....

KA-50: 23,810 lbs max takeoff / 4800 shaft HP = ~4.96 lb/HP

AH-64D: 23,000 lbs max takeoff / 3780 shaft HP = ~6.08 lb/HP

 

Add to that the lack of an anti-torque rotor which will suck 10-15% power; the KA-50 is well ahead in power to weight.

 

These calcs don't tell the whole story, however they may give you a rough idea of what kind of performance to expect compared to a KA-50 when taking a fully loaded chopper.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/8/2021 at 11:35 PM, Zergburger said:

When looking at the MGW of the apache comparing it to the KA-50 we have, The KA-50 has 2x 2400 ShHP motors. D model apache is running 2x 1890 ShHP (uprated from the 1690 ShHP motors of the A).

 

Comparison of power vs. max takeoff weight....

KA-50: 23,810 lbs max takeoff / 4800 shaft HP = ~4.96 lb/HP

AH-64D: 23,000 lbs max takeoff / 3780 shaft HP = ~6.08 lb/HP

 

Add to that the lack of an anti-torque rotor which will suck 10-15% power; the KA-50 is well ahead in power to weight.

 

These calcs don't tell the whole story, however they may give you a rough idea of what kind of performance to expect compared to a KA-50 when taking a fully loaded chopper.


You got your numbers wrong on Ka50. It takes an absolute maximum of 11.800kg to the air as per spec. That equates to 26.014 pounds. Otherwise it's correct. You also forget to mention that whereas Ka50 uses 100% of it's power for lift, AH-64D does not. You lose roughly 15-20% of that power for tail-rotor. Some helicopters of the conventional design lose as much as 30%. In other words, Ka50 is much more agile and powerfull per hp. It's a whole different beast. You will notice this at higher altitude as stated before 😉


Edited by zerO_crash

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm really looking forward to the Afghanistan map with all the choppers. MI-8, Mi-24, Apache... So much potential for great campaigns. Also learning new ways how to get helicopters up to the air in high altitudes. I still have in mind document from Afghanistan wars and how Russian pilots learned to take of on front wheel.

 

Polish pilots practicing the same here: 

 

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  • 10 months later...
On 2/6/2021 at 3:48 PM, cordite said:

Also not sure why they’d have a RFQ button. 

 

Any military operator is busy. Getting to grips with an entirely new aircraft, bringing it from early requirements, to figuring out what to include in the initial contracts from how many years of spares and how much crew and maintenance training they will need to purchase up front or figure out at say 5 or 10 years service. Then once the crews have basic proficiency and have flown about a bit, do they have enough training to be truly ready for warrior duty in a shooting war... with full logistics, confirmation that the training is effective... there's a LOT to deal with. Then, the official documentation would be SOOOO voluminous that smaller details might not be noticed for a long time.

Things like these tiny tanks, often aren't purchased up front, but rather get considered once the real missions prove some operating issues, like fuel consumption for the missions they hadn't planned for, but are now 80% of their flights. Some phone calls are made to friends in other airforces, and they talk of "robbie tanks", so they look at the website, and rather than wait for the govt to give them to you maybe 10 years from now, they ask for a quote quick to help submit an effective purchase request. 

Maybe India's new Guardians prove great in service, but right away they notice that fuel capacity is truly vital for operations in the hot and very high mountains, and maybe they ask for a very fast purchase of 10 such tanks... speed is often extremely important for such situations, as a normal channel might result in delivery years after it was needed in the first place. A quick quote can go a long way to speeding things up.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

Any military operator is busy. Getting to grips with an entirely new aircraft, bringing it from early requirements, to figuring out what to include in the initial contracts from how many years of spares and how much crew and maintenance training they will need to purchase up front or figure out at say 5 or 10 years service. Then once the crews have basic proficiency and have flown about a bit, do they have enough training to be truly ready for warrior duty in a shooting war... with full logistics, confirmation that the training is effective... there's a LOT to deal with. Then, the official documentation would be SOOOO voluminous that smaller details might not be noticed for a long time.

Things like these tiny tanks, often aren't purchased up front, but rather get considered once the real missions prove some operating issues, like fuel consumption for the missions they hadn't planned for, but are now 80% of their flights. Some phone calls are made to friends in other airforces, and they talk of "robbie tanks", so they look at the website, and rather than wait for the govt to give them to you maybe 10 years from now, they ask for a quote quick to help submit an effective purchase request. 

Maybe India's new Guardians prove great in service, but right away they notice that fuel capacity is truly vital for operations in the hot and very high mountains, and maybe they ask for a very fast purchase of 10 such tanks... speed is often extremely important for such situations, as a normal channel might result in delivery years after it was needed in the first place. A quick quote can go a long way to speeding things up.

 

 

A classic theatre of such undertakings is the Vietnam war. Helicopter crews, crew chiefs, mechanics etc. improvising and adapting their aircraft in theatre to meet active mission requirements. 

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So very true.... the innovations done by crews on their helis there... lots of stuff that's been forgotten!!!

Very common mods done in theatre, using bungie cords or ropes to hang a doorgun M-60, along with using a soup can mounted to the feed tray as an ammobelt feeding aid to help reliability. Considering how incredibly common this mod was, it MUST have been beneficial.

The most recent I read about was that apparently at least one Cobra gunship actually had 20mm Vulcan gunpods normally used on Phantoms, mounted on the wing stations!  That must have been one hell of a straffing run!!

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10 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

it's probably noscript but this is really funny.
Also if it is noscript then why the heck do you need javascript to put a number there?!

image.png

Buy this thing and waste 30 minutes of your life (presumably unpacking not included) to get 0 extra fuel!

Because the numbers are animated, it says 97 gallons and 312 lbs when the animation is done (that´s 367,2 litres and 141,5 kg in metric).

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