F15c high fedilitize after F15e?

[Rainmaker]

15 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf

 

I'm not fussed about WVR drone kills, they're not in the same context of A2A combat.

 

That is our current fight...and likely will be outside of a peer-peer conflict which is less likely IMO.  Like it or not...that’s where it’s at...that’s the reality of the situation. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Rainmaker

[Nahen]

Maybe let's decide out what is WVR? Because in sight, the AiM-54 can be fired. The sidewinders are usually shot from the BVR.

 

I will repeat again what the "quarrel" started - if you are flying a fighter such as the F-15C and you see the enemy with your own eyes, you have screwed up something and there is no explanation for it.

 

F-15E - this is another matter, it can happen attacking planes taking off from or returning to attacked airports. But these are "random" air fights, and not actually fights but executions.

Just because you see a rocket explosion and a falling target you hit with a Sidewinder fired 4-5 miles (7-9 km) doesn't mean you're fighting in WVR. In WVR you know the result at most.

 

Short-range missiles are intended to be self-defense weapons for today or the so-called weapons of the last chance. Not a strictly offensive missile, but just a defensive missile.

 

Again, for 30 years (or more) there has no been virtually REAL air combat between planes and their supports at a similar technological level. This is best seen in all the wars waged by Israel. Either more than average trained pilots flying against similar machines but with poor pilots, or, as we get closer to the present day, perfect pilots on much better airplanes armed with much better radars and rockets. If you are fighting with a gun against a knife, you can afford to try let him come closer... 

 

That's why I gave  fights F-15C's from the former Yugoslavia as an example. There were similar planes - with similar possibilities, unfortunately with a huge advantage of information on the US side. 

Nevertheless, the pilots did not allow themselves to risk "coming into" eye contact before the missiles were launched.

[GGTharos]

22 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

That is our current fight...and likely will be outside of a peer-peer conflict which is less likely IMO.  Like it or not...that’s where it’s at...that’s the reality of the situation. 

 

 

Ok, fair enough.  

[Reax178]

9 hours ago, Nahen said:

 

I wrote that the F-15E is able to fly with CFT and armament 2.54+ Mach? No, I wrote that the F-15E has a maximum speed of about 300 km / h higher than the F-15C - around 3000-3100 km / h.
It is probably obvious that the maximum speeds are the result of technical trials and 99% are carried out on "bare" airframes. Which does not change the fact that the F-15E is much faster than the F-15C.

You know what i meant, you literally said that the F15E will dominate A/A since it will be going faster than every other aircraft (writing mach 2.54 and comparing it to mach 1.8/1.9 for the F14) which is absolutely false. You'll NEVER be at mach 2.5 when engaging targets in BVR since you have to carry enough fuel to rtb and enough missiles (which creates alot of drag).

 

Thus saying that the F15E will have "no opponent" is simply not true. 

[DGC338]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:08 PM, Rainmaker said:

You realize I am actually one of the people that has access to all the performance data, right?!?  Not only FM charts but also the books that go into pretty good detail on what the differences are? What do you mean performance is different but characteristics are the same?  If you mean that physics stays the same, sure?  Lift is lift, drags is drag, etc.  AFCS is not the same between the two for starters.  Mech is.  You let me know when you find C model charts with -229 motor performance...I'll wait.
 

And no, you won’t be able remove them, in any way other than graphically, which is pretty silly IMO.  RB has already said as much.  The point of any comparison is moot.  The C in DCS is also not accurate in all places either FWIW. 

 

Rainmaker, where does the current C model FM (as alluded to in your last line) in your opinion need  to be changed to make it more accurate. It is mostly correct and off at the fringes or off in more substantial ways?

I would love a full fidelity C. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by DGC338

[Nahen]

On 9/11/2021 at 2:30 AM, Reax178 said:

You know what i meant, you literally said that the F15E will dominate A/A since it will be going faster than every other aircraft (writing mach 2.54 and comparing it to mach 1.8/1.9 for the F14) which is absolutely false. You'll NEVER be at mach 2.5 when engaging targets in BVR since you have to carry enough fuel to rtb and enough missiles (which creates alot of drag).

 

Thus saying that the F15E will have "no opponent" is simply not true. 

 

Seriously? Strange, because every time I fight in the F-15C I shoot EVERY rocket above Mach 1.2-1.3. I never (except for my mistakes) allow myself WVR to fight. When I know that I fight against another F-15C or F-14 with AiM-54 I ALWAYS accelerate to 2.2-2.5 Mach and at least 35-40 ooo feet before launching the rocket and often higher, and surprisingly always ( almost always) I go back to the airport ... The average time of my "mission" in the air is 1.5-2 hours.

 

So exactly the same will be with the F-15E module. The AiM-120 can easily be launched from 50-60 miles before it "reaches range" from a height of 45 ooo feet and at Mach 2.3-2.5. In most cases, the opponent has no idea that a rocket is flying towards him, despite the fact that he has me on the radar - he assumes that 120 must be launched from 20-30 miles. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Nahen

[Rainmaker]

15 hours ago, DGC338 said:

Rainmaker, where does the current C model FM (as alluded to in your last line) in your opinion need  to be changed to make it more accurate. It is mostly correct and off at the fringes or off in more substantial ways?

I would love a full fidelity C. 

 

 

It’s been a bit, and it’s anyone’s guess where my notes are, but most I believe to be related to the simplified engine modeling.  I could be 100% incorrect in my assumption of that, and it could be drag, or other things. The control system, for what it’s worth, does many things very very well. It misses in few areas on things that it should do, but is far more right than it is wrong. The engine modeling, is very simplified though, which is why I think much of the problem lies there. Might be intentional, might not be in terms of thrust, but it’s lacking some of the other features like increased idles, etc that are in the real thing for stall/stag prevention, etc. Being an FC3 aircraft, and so many other projects ongoing at this point, I would say we got what we got most likely. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Rainmaker

[Spurts]

@Rainmakersimilar to how in other full fidelity modules if the throttle is pulled to idle it will stay in Mil until subsonic?

[Rainmaker]

16 minutes ago, Spurts said:

@Rainmakersimilar to how in other full fidelity modules if the throttle is pulled to idle it will stay in Mil until subsonic?

correct!

 

seems minor, but you throw those kinds of things off...then thrust is off...then performance is off...it’s just a trickle-down effect. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Rainmaker

[Cmptohocah]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:43 AM, Nahen said:

 

I repeat - the "relatively equal" fights of the American F-15s are those in the former Yugoslavia. All MiGs were attacked from a distance classified as BVR. And destroyed at the border, at least 8-10 km with rockets fired in the BVR.

 

Nothing "relatively equal" there. Most of the Fulkrums in question had no operating radar, some had no operating RWR, poor pilot training, complete GCI mess etc.

[Nahen]

14 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Nic tam nie jest „stosunkowo równe”. Większość omawianych Fulkrumów nie miała działającego radaru, niektóre nie miały działającego RWR, słabe wyszkolenie pilotów, kompletny bałagan GCI itp.

>>>"relatively equal"<<< Do you know what the quotation marks mean?

Maybe then show me some "more even" F-15C fight??

[Cmptohocah]

7 hours ago, Nahen said:

>>>"relatively equal"<<< Do you know what the quotation marks mean?

Maybe then show me some "more even" F-15C fight??

I can't 'cause I don't really know history of Eagle's engagements.

I do know however that in 1999 the two Fulcrums that got shot down were effectively human-operated drones.
Not that MiG-29B can put much of a fight against the AMRAAM carrying Eagles anyway, but the Fulcrum drivers had no operating radar, had one RWR that was working, they were blindly following a very questionable GCI command: "Blues are in direction west." (that was the actual radio call which they interpreted as a command and followed), they had no idea that 120's can be fired in TWS...
All in all, they never really threatened the F-15C in any serious way. Think of re-crating this in DCS and you will understand why it was not even "relatively equal" - look I used quotes

[Kazansky222]

I'm just sitting here wanting an F-15A to go at it with everything we have now and have coming along, Mig-29A, F-14A, Mig-23MLA, Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, F-8, Mig-21, F-5,  F-4 and F-104 (maybe)

 

That Fox 1 era is going to be the most complete and fleshed out area DCS is going to have.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Kazansky222

[Njinsa]

22 hours ago, Nahen said:

>>>"relatively equal"<<< Do you know what the quotation marks mean?

Maybe then show me some "more even" F-15C fight??

 

Desert storm clash between Eagle and Fulcrum was less favorable to Eagle than same units engaged in operation Allied Force in ex-Yugoslavia and fits better to compare those 2 platforms, IMHO. Serbs were trying to save their military resources from total destruction (partially successful) learning from Desert Storm lessons (fake targets, smart SAM displacement and radar usage) and thus all-out air battle was somehow missed.

 

Iraqi MIG-29 were, in if not perfect, than in mint flying condition, flown with Russian tactics but crewed with experienced pilots from Iraq-Iran war. Of course, they were outnumbered but not in high ratio.

Serbs had Fulcrums which missed a deal for already arranged mid-life upgrade program in early 1998, so almost all of units were grounded for a long period of time. Power generators, battery charges, missile ejectors charges, radios, FCR and RWR components are amongst the most severe ones failing from BIT runs before takeoff. Pilots were put off tarmac for months without any training on alternative platform - MIG-21 Fishbed was a lousy resource for that matter, too. Serbian GCI assets were jammed alongside rest of RF spectrum. Tactic they used was obsolete to say at least and generally they failed to develop a game plan for any offensive or contingency. The moment they took off they were doomed to be smoked by Eagles.

 

If something similar could happen in 2020's (hypothetically) I don't expect different scenario even with more modern and capable Fulcrum flying against Eagles, In 20 years, even some C model units received FCR upgrades and more capable weapons with still superior flight hours and adaptive tactics than Fulcrums.

 

[Nahen]

In the former Yugoslavia, MiG-29 pilots tried to fight the F-15. They tried to find them and flew towards them. They had no chances anyway. If I remember correctly, they even managed to launch a rocket towards the F-15C.

 

During the desert storm, no Iraqi MiG tried to engage in combat with the F-15. None of them even turned the beak towards the F-15 ... I'm not going to discuss one case of the MiG-25 that reportedly shot down the F-15 near Saudi border...

 

All of them were shot down shortly after take-off or while trying to escape to Iran.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Nahen

[Tank50us]

17 minutes ago, Nahen said:

During the desert storm, no Iraqi MiG tried to engage in combat with the F-15. None of them even turned the beak towards the F-15 ... I'm not going to discuss one case of the MiG-25 that reportedly shot down the F-15 near Saudi border...

 

There were a couple Mig29s that took on some Eagles, and performed some Counter-Eagle tactics to try and get in close where they had the edge. The problem is that while Iraqis were experienced from the Iran/Iraq war, they had no real experience flying against F-15s crewed by pilots who not only knew how to use their birds to maximum capability, but were also trained by combat vets of Vietnam, who in turn were trained by pilots of WW2 and Korea. So there was a lot of combat experience, either direct or absorbed sitting in those Eagle pits. This ultimately lead to one being killed in BVR, and the second smashing into the desert when it tried to do a Split-S too close to the ground (trying to force the Eagle into the deck). 

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Nahen said:

During the desert storm, no Iraqi MiG tried to engage in combat with the F-15.

 

There are at least two separate MiG-25 engagements, one of which ended WVR and one high-fast with both sides taking shots at each other, and at least one MiG-29 engagement which ended WVR and a lock or even a shot was taken at an eagle at or under 4nm.

[Nahen]

Any sources?

[GGTharos]

Just a start, there are probably far better accounts of the engagements out there:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

[Rainmaker]

Just stop entertaining the folks that continuously say the exact same stuff over and over when it’s clear they have never actually taken five minutes to use google. 
 

Links are all over this thread already. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Rainmaker

[Hobo 1-1]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:04 AM, GGTharos said:

i hope you can't, otherwise it's not really an F-15E.  They're part of the package of what the aircraft is and does.

Hey man, I wanted to write and let you know I appreciate your knowledge on the subject and your steadfast resolve to be calm in the face of those who think they know better, because they looked at screen shots of a games’ aircraft model. You won’t get through to them.

You’re arguing with people who don’t know what they think they do because they don’t have the background to understand the implied casualties of their argument and lack the awareness to realize that just because they’ve  read through Janes or an offhand copy of what they think is the ‘full picture’ from a (one of many) manual doesn’t mean they are informed. 

It’s the exact same energy that causes people to think they are on the same footing as their doctor, because they’ve spent five minutes on Web MD “researching”. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Palmetto 1-1

[Superbug Echo]

BIG BOY VERSION...NEEDS TO BE A THING!!!!!!!

[USA_Recon]

On 1/31/2021 at 1:44 AM, Nodak said:

Just give it the ability to remove the conformal fuel packs, they are removable and it can fly perfectly fine without.

That would be a nice start

[USA_Recon]

It would be a dream come true for a high fidelity F-15A/C - but everyone says that ED will only do multi role (and helicopters it seems)

I think something like a F-15A would fit really well into DCS .  Since ED appears not interested maybe a 3rd party dev would do it .

That all said … Removing the CFTs would be an easier concept than building an entirely new aircraft.  I know people that will freak out about it - but it has been tried irl .

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f-15e-strike-eagles-now-flying-without-conformal-fuel-tanks-on-air-defense-missions

“Some F-15E Strike Eagles have ditched their conformal fuel tanks as they take on more air-to-air missions in the absence of the F-15C.”

Makes for a good headline for DCS eh ?

I know it means RB has to create a separate FM but this would be easier than an entirely new aircraft.

Edited June 26, 2023 by USA_Recon