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{ ED INVESTIGATING } MFD Text and symbology messy with latest update


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I found the map useful in the A-10, specifically when flying over the mountains in bad weather. It really helps to know what's below before diving into the clouds. 🙂 Of course, in the Bug, you've got the radar for that (if you're not worried about detection, at least), but in the Harrier you don't. It also helps when you need to keep track of national borders (say, in a campaign). It's situational, but if you're moving mud in difficult terrain, such as Caucasus mountains, it's a very useful tool. The maps we have do an OK job at it.

24 minutes ago, Hotdog17 said:

Agreed - absolutely aweful! I really hope they revert to the previous font as the Harrier is a real favorite of mine. Do we think the fault lies with Razbam then? Or have ED done something? I would like to provide feedback to whoever is responsible in the hope that it can be resolved. Also not not too impressed with the new engine sound, although I suppose I will get used to it.

Well, considering that RAZBAM had recently made a change to the fonts and touted it as an improvement (which it's anything but), I think it's pretty clear who is at fault. Maybe it was ED who caused SVG symbology to be bugged, but in that case, RAZBAM switched to a buggy symbology system.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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10 hours ago, Auntystatic said:

It was reported during testing, but sometimes there are much more high priority or important issues that the developers need to address first, in my case I have the MPCD's exported to another monitor and those displays are pin sharp, the map display is a little harder to read but the data on it can now be changed in colour to help readability.

 

Unfortunately it's fair to say that the testers do not always complete a thorough job, outside the scope of this issue way to many things get missed that are pretty obvious.  I'd like to see an increase in alpha testers that have more real world knowledge also with a military background rather than say a few thousand followers on youtube being a criteria.  Appreciate there are some excellent testers within the community with these credentials that do an amazing job, but there are others that really i'd question whether they have the right skill set.  I think the minimum criteria would be say 1500 hours with the specific ED module they are actually testing.   That said when you see the developer flying around for the launch video with 10 degrees of nozzle it might to too much to hope for lol.  

 

At this point i even have serious concerns over the Razbam SME given that they are claiming the rose compass depiction on the TGP is correct.  Anyone that has seen that data feed knows the reality yet here we are moved to resolved.  Razbam need to be careful im picking up on quite a few things moved to resolved that have not been.  Have leopards really changed their spots because this is what caused the fracture with the community last year!

 

I should have in my original post highlighted that the EHSD txt is better however that is purely because they have put a black outline around the txt.  Every other MFD screen is 50% worse if not more.  Things such as engine management and take off performance being a case in point,  or the cas page.

 

I cannot see how this was a higher priority than say introducing a new weapon system at the degradation of other systems.  Fly first, fight second.  I perceive this is another case of the Razbam dev getting tunnel versioned about how good SVG is without actually looking at the reality.  It should not have made it past his dev screen, certainly not an alpha build let alone beta.  

 

 


Edited by Hawkeye_UK

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So on the Hornet you can adjust the stroke thickness and outline in a lua file (I’ve played with it for the AMPCD - but there is a mod in the user files @Elphaba made, not 100% sure how it works). I wonder if now the MFDs are in the same svg format as the Hornet you could do something similar with a simple lua change to increase readability? I’m at work for a while but I’ll try take a look later, could be a simple fix.

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2 minutes ago, mtd2811 said:

In VR the mfds are simply BAD!

And ext lights are like its a bloody xmas tree!


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Oh Jesus - I haven't seen the exterior lights yet.. Hope it doesn't look like the Hornet! Like a bloody shooting star.

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20 hours ago, Shiroka said:

So on the Hornet you can adjust the stroke thickness and outline in a lua file (I’ve played with it for the AMPCD - but there is a mod in the user files @Elphaba made, not 100% sure how it works). I wonder if now the MFDs are in the same svg format as the Hornet you could do something similar with a simple lua change to increase readability? I’m at work for a while but I’ll try take a look later, could be a simple fix.

So to start off at looking for a fix, in Mods/aircraft/AV8BNA/Cockpit/MPCD/indicator there is a file called MPCD_definitions.lua

 

Lines 384-390 read:

 

    if _outline ~= nil then
        object.thickness        = DMC_outline_thickness
        object.fuzziness        = DMC_outline_fuzziness
    else
        object.thickness        = stroke_thickness
        object.fuzziness        = stroke_fuzziness
    end

 

I was playing around with changing these to something like:

        object.thickness        = 0.5 * DMC_outline_thickness

etc. which seems to be making some difference.

 

I haven't had the time to work out exactly what refers to what yet, but looks like by changing a multiplication of these 4 numbers you can change the thickness of the strokes and the black outline.

 

If anyone finds good values then post them here. Once we have working (better) values it's easy to create a simple OvGME ready mod.

 

*Edit: ignore this for now and check out @netizensmithpost below which looks more promising.


Edited by Shiroka
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Change mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Cockpit\Displays\Display_StrokeDefs.lua to look like this:

 

stroke_thickness  = 0.5
stroke_fuzziness  = 0.4

-- Currently is used for DMC generated fonts black outline
--DMC_outline_thickness = stroke_thickness * 3
--DMC_outline_fuzziness = stroke_fuzziness * 1.1
DMC_outline_thickness = 0
DMC_outline_fuzziness = 0
DMC_stroke_thickness  = 0.65
DMC_stroke_fuzziness  = 0.42
 

Now all outlines are gone.

 

That's not the end of the story though. They changed the default colour values to assume font outlines so these need to be made darker but I don't have time to do that right now. The colours are defined in MPCD_definitions.lua

 

 


Edited by netizensmith
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8 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

 

Unfortunately it's fair to say that the testers do not always complete a thorough job, outside the scope of this issue way to many things get missed that are pretty obvious.  I'd like to see an increase in alpha testers that have more real world knowledge also with a military background rather than say a few thousand followers on youtube being a criteria.  Appreciate there are some excellent testers within the community with these credentials that do an amazing job, but there are others that really i'd question whether they have the right skill set.  I think the minimum criteria would be say 1500 hours with the specific ED module they are actually testing.   That said when you see the developer flying around for the launch video with 10 degrees of nozzle it might to too much to hope for lol.

 

Software testing is not easy. Lot of things can be automated from programming perspective if you have proper tools and methods already done. But more complex the systems becomes, like the cockpit buttons, switches and other system logic, then it is just easier to have a person to do the tests.

 

But for a person to perform the tests, they need a checklist. They need to repeat those checklists again and again and again. First by doing the correct order, then doing the improper order.

 

Like the wheel chock would have been found on the moment it was implemented by anyone who has even slight knowledge that what are the take-off procedures by the ground crew perspective. Even someone just looking couple YouTube videos would have been enough to see that chocks are removed when engine is running. So part of the testing procedure you go and you test "If I remove the chocks first before anything else..." and then later "If I remove chocks as last before taxiing...." and various other variations. With the chocks it is easy, but when it comes to things like MFCD, INS, TPOD, TV, HUD designation and the order how you can switch between those etc. It becomes just too much work for a amateur tester as it is too time consuming, too boring and just "not fun".

 

And for the testing sake, does the 10 degree nozzles matter? He left them clearly so after taxiing, or had just some lever in that position or whatever. But if it is something that shouldn't matter to rocket testing procedure (at least there is modeling that you can not launch rockets if you have nozzles too high angle etc) then it is just acceptable that for quick tests you skip some of the proper procedures and methods. BUT, when you generate habit to do that, you start having problems as you don't spot something. You just go through assumption "Well, anyone anyways should do it this proper method so I don't need to even consider someone would do it wrong, duh!".

 

8 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

At this point i even have serious concerns over the Razbam SME given that they are claiming the rose compass depiction on the TGP is correct.  Anyone that has seen that data feed knows the reality yet here we are moved to resolved.  Razbam need to be careful im picking up on quite a few things moved to resolved that have not been.  Have leopards really changed their spots because this is what caused the fracture with the community last year!

 

Too many things are hide in DCS to "It is a secret" or "SME said so" and you don't really know the sources. Seriously, even the ED does it. They say that everything they do is only by the public information. Okay - can ED provide all the public sources they have in one directory to download and check them? No, it is not good enough that "One of the developers is ex-??????...." as that is just one human factor again to go wrong. Again something that no one else can verify and check as it is not a public information.

In many places SME are nice to have. But they are sometimes used as escape goats to shut up the questions, close bug reports etc. Basically, anything that SME says needs to be taken with grain of salt. And that still needs to be public information that can be used. The whole world history has been changed, lied and twisted by the "SME".

 

Like looking that compass rose, it doesn't make any sense (there is no logic in it) and it is anyways completely wrong. It is inverted even!

On last test I did test the TPOD rose and it does not even show the direction aircraft is going.

My heading was by the HUD directly to WEST so 270. My TPOD was in INS mode so I could slew it around me as MAP direction (left/right/up/down).

 

1) The compass rose does not turn around by the direction or position TPOD is pointing, so you can not use it to see "From that target there, the North is in that direction".

2) As I was flying straight to West, the North is then at my right. Yet on the TPOD the North arrow points to Left, signaling that I am flying to East (coming from West) and South is at my right. So it can't be used even to see what is the aircraft heading! And I had the TPOD caged to front, pointing to West or ground stabilized to waypoint ahead etc, doesn't matter!

 

So how can it be correct?

When you have TPOD On, and you go to INS mode, the INS is limited to TPOD slewing capacity and gimbal limits. Does that make a sense? You can't slew target designation smoothly or around your aircraft at close range as the INS will jump around your aircraft like TPOD gimbal does. When you use INS mode to move TD further distances then it becomes slower and slower and you can't really move it around to designate targets further distance.

Instead TPOD following what INS tells as coordinates, the INS points where TPOD looks.

 

How can anyone sign a such system that doesn't work logically

 

Value of evidence.jpg

 

 

So where does the SME be in the evidence value? THE LOWEST POSSIBLE! It is the least trustworthy evidence for anything.  Time after time after time it has been proven that you can not fully trust to eye witnesses, the crowd will generate own false memories and more stressful the situation then more errors is made etc.

 

How reliable is your memory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB2OegI6wvI

The problem with eyewitness testimony https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhMdC7MO0U

Power of Suggestion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il0u2s_WGXA

 

That doesn't mean that everyone is lying or they don't know something, but they can not be sure about things. Like if someone would need to ask me that what are the functions of my car right signal lever, I could maybe say 50% of its features. If someone ask that what symbols or text there are, it becomes problem. And that is years of using it and reading at least twice the manual from cover to cover and some parts multiple times for procedures. Only way to be sure what it does is to go and take the manual ("Documents") and check that, and then go and sit in the car and actually try out and document it and cross reference it to official documentation.

 TL;DR  (One day I needed to swap the windshield sweepers and in my car they are parked to slotted cover so you don't have access to them. To get them swapped, you need to park them for "Maintenance mode". I remember I read about it, I remember I thought about that process first time I saw the car, but I totally forgot the process. I knew that I needed to do something with signal lever at specific time. I was required to read the manual to do so simple task. And I didn't remember that proper procedure was, turn start key for first notch to turn power on, flip the signal lever from neutral position to auto mode, turn key for power off. If you didn't have signal lever in neutral position but common "Automatic" that works with IR sensor in windshield to automatically wipe windshield if it starts raining then it doesn't work. So you need to first remember to put it to neutral, then turn a key  etc).

 

Such things as a lever movement as haptic and tactile feel, the sound it makes etc is what needs video evidence. Record the video of how it moves etc.

Like example here:

 

 

That is the video evidence for the ED that how the trimmer works and how it feels. That is second best thing as it is video evidence that shows the laws of nature. The best thing would be that programmer responsible to model that can repeatedly test that while programming it. Is that expected to happen? No. But trained eyes with some experience can generate the idea of the feeling how does that cyclic move etc.

 

8 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

I should have in my original post highlighted that the EHSD txt is better however that is purely because they have put a black outline around the txt.  Every other MFD screen is 50% worse if not more.  Things such as engine management and take off performance being a case in point,  or the cas page.

 

I still disagree with that, as EHSD even without the map at background, it is more difficult to read in Rift S. The fonts are thicker, the black outline blurs the fonts shape etc.

It needs tweaking. Sure the darkness helps in the bright background, but that fuzziness just doesn't help there either.

 

And this is the problem, SVG graphics are not answer for sharp good text. Yes, you get sharp graphics, but when it comes to outputting graphics at various resolutions, at various viewing distances etc, it becomes challenging. And it is better to make a bitmap graphics that match each individual requirement than try to have one for all.

Then when new effects gets applied to that SVG, like blurring, hinting, anti-aliasing etc, it might become bad very easily. Just alone the hinting is difficult process to get right for fonts.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdspOtgciQ

 

We have one major challenge in the all DCS MFD's etc, that is they are digital displays simulation that is viewed through using other display.

VR headsets has own displays and own lenses, and it is not much easier with the 2D displays.

 

How large resolution does the Harrier MFCD have? Who knows? The 4th generation targeting pod (Litening G4) that we should have itself is now a 1024x1024 color CCD/FLIR. Color symbols, better tracking and enhanced digital zoom (16x now).

But that all is put through a MFCD that has some resolution. And all the texts etc are suppose to be rendered in that resolution as well. And that sets the fonts be pixelmaps, not SVG.

There are some kind specific font designed for those displays and so on.

 

So if we are trying to have too smooth and curved text on a display that would have low resolution, it is not going to work.

 

8 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

I cannot see how this was a higher priority than say introducing a new weapon system at the degradation of other systems.  Fly first, fight second.  I perceive this is another case of the Razbam dev getting tunnel versioned about how good SVG is without actually looking at the reality.  It should not have made it past his dev screen, certainly not an alpha build let alone beta.  

 

Well said.

 

9 hours ago, razalom said:

Sigh and I was just learning the Harrier in VR as well 😞 Oh well back to the F16 I go I guess.

 

Easy thing is to just roll back the update. You have given the tools and methods, better do so if you can skip the patch otherwise.

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I agree the new fonts are much harder to read on the MFDs and I am using a 4k monitor. Couldnt really read anything with the map below them.

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I'll try to fix the colours later. If anyone has a copy of the old MPCD_definitions.lua file that would help. The entire old " mods\aircraft\AV8BNA" folder hierarchy zipped up would be even better.

 

EDIT: Ok, the colours are the same as before so it's something else... I don't know what. Could someone post the whole of the AV8NA folder?


Edited by netizensmith
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It is stating the obvious, but just copying the old 'cockpit' folder brings it back to what it was. Don't know if that messes other stuff up though.

lua file attached from 59625.

MPCD_definitions.lua

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As I said above, a quick fix to revert is just to copy the previous 'cockpit' folder over.  Seems to be working OK given my limited knowledge of the Harrier!


Edited by imacken

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As title. Tried in 2D at 1440p and at 4K and in VR on an HP Reverb G1.

 

Previously the MFDs were highly readable to me on both my 4K Flat display and in VR. Now all the symbology seems to have a black outline around it that renders it borderline unreadable in 2D and literally unreadable in VR.

 

Discussion and evidence can be found in this thread:

 

 


Edited by netizensmith
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I have posted this in then bug section of the forum now. If it affects you as well then please add to the]at post, giving details of your equipment to help the devs get a fix out. Razbam Elmo posted in Reddit that they had tested on 3 VR systems and he thought it looked fine so I don't know what's going on.

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It's 60Mb.  Just download the base DCS release version and the Harrier.

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OK guys. It seems to be down to the \DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Cockpit\MPCD\indicator folder, so I've zipped that from the previous version and attached here. (I hope this is allowed here!) Delete the new one and replace. That works OK.

Also, the font colour definition is in the day_color parameter in DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Cockpit\MPCD\indicator\Global\MPCD_Materials.lua

 

indicator.zip

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1 hour ago, imacken said:

OK guys. It seems to be down to the \DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Cockpit\MPCD\indicator folder, so I've zipped that from the previous version and attached here. (I hope this is allowed here!) Delete the new one and replace. That works OK.

Also, the font colour definition is in the day_color parameter in DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Cockpit\MPCD\indicator\Global\MPCD_Materials.lua

 

indicator.zip 123.63 kB · 2 downloads

That causes a lot of the text to be replaced with artifacting in the form of squares. Does it work completely for you? The text that isn't corrupted for me does look better but it causes other problems.

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Works OK for me so far, but I haven't tested too much. What screens are corrupted for you?

Are you sure you are deleting the 'new' indicators folder and replacing it with the 'old' one?

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