Looking for actual/recommened aerial refueling speeds.

[Mac D]

So I'm practicing aerial refueling again.

Now the thing is : i'm looking for actual aerial refueling speeds for different types of aircraft.
I found the recommended refueling speed for a F-16C which is 310 knots

Could someone tell me (if they know) what the speeds are for :
A-10C
AV-8B
F-14 A/B
F/A-18C

And if someone know : are there speed differences per type when refueling from a different types of aircraft, like the S-3, KC-10 and KC-135MPRS.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Mac D

[Mac D]

9 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

Afaik the tanker does not alter it's speed depending on the aircraft intending to refuel, they just racetrack at a fixed speed - this would really be a pain for the crew . So the speed for every aircraft is that of the tanker, which is between 250 and 300 kts usually.

Understandable, thank you

[HammerUK9]

I'm a air traffic controller for the North Atlantic for my day job - military formations including tankers tend to be roughly Mach 0.8 at roughly FL250, which equates to about 330 knots indicated. Obviously that's a single straight line rather than racetrack.

[=52d= Skip]

c. Speeds. The tanker speed during a RV procedure is usually the intended refuelling
speed; this is normally optimised for best receiver AAR performance. If the speed differs
from that pre-briefed, the tanker should advise the receiver in the RV Initial Call. If
communications are not possible for any reason, and pre-briefing is not possible, the tanker
will fly at the optimum speed for the receiver type, as listed in Annex 10R, TANKER AAR
CAPABILITIES. The receiver should normally fly the procedure at the tanker’s speed
(KIAS) plus 20 kts
 

I had a table once listing the best speeds for different receivers, but can´t find anymore. 

[HammerUK9]

On 1/30/2021 at 11:03 PM, Desert Fox said:

Afaik the tanker does not alter it's speed depending on the aircraft intending to refuel, they just racetrack at a fixed speed - this would really be a pain for the crew . So the speed for every aircraft is that of the tanker, which is between 250 and 300 kts usually.

 

From ATP 3.3.4.2:

c. Speeds.

(1) Tanker. The tanker speed during a RV procedure is prescribed in
the tanker’s flight manual and repeated in the applicable National
SRD; this speed is normally optimised for best tanker
performance. This is the speed that the tanker will fly if
communication is not established with the receiver. If the tanker’s
speed differs from that listed, the tanker should advise the
receiver in the RV Initial Call.

(2) Receiver. The receiver should normally fly the speed prescribed
in its flight manual and listed in appropriate tanker National SRD.
For Option 1 of the RV Delta (Chapter 2, Annex 2D) where the
tanker’s speed is known to the receiver, the receiver flies the
tanker speed plus 20 kts.

 

 

From some reading I gather the 'standard' track speed of a KC-135 is 275KIAS. Under most circumstances they will adjust to the appropriate speed for the receiver, which may be negotiated in the air. For Rendezvous Echo situations (which seem to be the most DCS-appropriate) there's no standard speed specified.

 

Have a look at the Joint Air Power Competence Centre - Air to Air Refuelling (linked below) if you really want to lose hours to reading!

https://www.japcc.org/aar/

 

[ST0RM]

Standard speed is set by the ATP-56B chart. 

Speed does differ between receiver and further based on altitude and the ability of the receiver to meet the standard speed. IE carrying armament creates lots of drag. 

For an A-10, the ATP specifies 220kts, however in real world ops, this was closer to 200-195kts

The AV-8B, F/A-18 and F-14 use the BDA or MPRS pods. We kept it at 275-270kts due to limits with the soft MPRS drogues. BDA was solid steel but still kept at 275kts. 

 

Hope that helps.

Edited February 1, 2021 by ST0RM

[Backy 51]

AAR Speed from a KC-135:

A-10 - 220KIAS

F-14 / F-18 - 285KIAS

 

[HammerUK9]

Enjoy

[RyboPops]

Great resource, thanks for sharing!

[Mac D]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:56 PM, HammerUK9 said:

Enjoy

  

On 2/1/2021 at 2:40 AM, ST0RM said:

Standard speed is set by the ATP-56B chart. 

Speed does differ between receiver and further based on altitude and the ability of the receiver to meet the standard speed. IE carrying armament creates lots of drag. 

For an A-10, the ATP specifies 220kts, however in real world ops, this was closer to 200-195kts

The AV-8B, F/A-18 and F-14 use the BDA or MPRS pods. We kept it at 275-270kts due to limits with the soft MPRS drogues. BDA was solid steel but still kept at 275kts. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Better (very) late then never (sorry)

Thank you guys very very much for this information ,defenitly needed, defenitly bookmarked

Yet one last question (sorry again)
The prescribed airspeeds for the tanker : are those actual airspeeds or are those ground speeds ?

Edited June 17, 2021 by Mac D

[HammerUK9]

29 minutes ago, Mac D said:

Yet one last question (sorry again)
The prescribed airspeeds for the tanker : are those actual airspeeds or are those ground speeds ?

 

Table says IAS so you'd need to calculate groundspeed from that

[Mac D]

1 hour ago, HammerUK9 said:

 

Table says IAS so you'd need to calculate groundspeed from that

Thanks again