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Skhval won't lock clearly visible targets.


IronChancellor

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I know this has been an issue since the beginning of time, but since BS3 isn't happening I decided to bring it up again. I know DCS doesn't have real contrast locking, but the current limitations placed on the skhval are not even close to realistic. Both of the following images show a clearly visible unit that the skhval refuses to lock onto. I have not changed the brightness or contrast dials.

skhval-1.png

skhval-2.png

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I'm just guessing here but I think that's EXACTLY what the contrast dials are for??...too boast contrast in order to lock.


Edited by Raven434th
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18 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

too boast contrast in order to lock.

Unfortunately the dials only affect what you (the pilot/human) sees on the IT-23 screen. It in no way affects the Shkval's ability to gain a lock. You get set it to be completely grey and it can still lock.

Lock is seemingly only affected by (a) being in the maybe 9.5km max distance, (b) weather effects like haze, (c) time of day - it can still appear to be broad daylight outside, but the approximation ED has implemented means you can't lock something at 2.5km out and (d) fast moving targets or those in clutter can be harder to lock or lose the lock more frequently.

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On 1/30/2021 at 8:32 PM, IronChancellor said:

 Both of the following images show a clearly visible unit that the skhval refuses to lock onto. I have not changed the brightness or contrast dials.

skhval-1.png

skhval-2.png

 

Use the smallest target designator box possible.  It will lock more targets and faster.

Air units are difficult.  Make sure target is centered.  It can take 1/2/3 attempts.  God forbid, even 10 attempts.

As stated, there is no target recognition algorithm.  You are locking unit IDs.  the smallest td box works best.

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9 minutes ago, fudabidu said:

@BIGNEWY This problem just got worse since the 2.5 release. Do you need a track to investigate or can you just ask the team if it's supposed to be this bad?

If even a new forum member knows about this it's might be time to do something about it.

 

always add a short track replay showing the issue, I can directly test and compare my own then, and right a report if needed

 

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You heard the man.
If we can show the issue in a short track we MIGHT finally get an answer. Yes, it's stupid considering how obvious and well known the issue is, but that's just how ED works.

I'll set up a small test mission when I got time, but I expect my TRK files to be broken.

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@IronChancellor

 

At what daytime did you play the mission? As far as i remember, the shkval's locking capabilities are simply bound to a fixed daytime/nighttime cycle which doesn't make sense sometimes, especially at summer dusk/dawn. The trick for now is using illumination rockets above the target during dusk/night/dawn.

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On 2/4/2021 at 3:40 AM, Alec Delorean said:

@IronChancellor

 

At what daytime did you play the mission? As far as i remember, the shkval's locking capabilities are simply bound to a fixed daytime/nighttime cycle which doesn't make sense sometimes, especially at summer dusk/dawn. The trick for now is using illumination rockets above the target during dusk/night/dawn.

^ This. The time of day, by the way, is from 6 PM local (game) time onwards.

 

And the Shkval's daylight range was reduced in 2.5 as well. It used to be able to lock well at up to 12 km, would give you a 'C' (launch cue) at 9 km, now it barely locks and launches at 7.5 km even if it's a clear sunny day.  

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6 minutes ago, Sh4rk said:

^ This. The time of day, by the way, is from 6 PM local (game) time onwards.

 

And the Shkval's daylight range was reduced in 2.5 as well. It used to be able to lock well at up to 12 km, would give you a 'C' (launch cue) at 9 km, now it barely locks and launches at 7.5 km even if it's a clear sunny day.  

 

It's affected by fog and overcast as well.  Even if it's very thin fog.


Edited by Taz1004
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Why bother with a track.  This is a WELL KNOWN issue, and has been complained about for YEARS.

 

Come on, ED.  Don't give us the "give us a track" BS anymore.  You know EXACTLY what is wrong here.

 

There is NO contrast lock.  You're using simple code for time of day, and a few other factors.

 

You guys need to fix this.  We need REAL constrast lock for EO.  You're developing all these new radar systems now.  Please fix the problem with EO on your, what was it?, 2008 RELEASE DATE helicopter!

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Why bother with a track.  This is a WELL KNOWN issue, and has been complained about for YEARS.

 

>> IGNORED OR CANCELED ?

 

Come on, ED.  Don't give us the "give us a track" BS anymore.  You know EXACTLY what is wrong here.

 

>> GREY MATTER RULES ?

 

There is NO contrast lock.  You're using simple code for time of day, and a few other factors.

 

>> CUNNING RANDOM FUNCTION ?

 

You guys need to fix this.  We need REAL constrast lock for EO.  You're developing all these new radar systems now.  Please fix the problem with EO on your, what was it?, 2008 RELEASE DATE helicopter!

 

>> HEAVY GOING ?

 

 

ED'S  RESPONSIVENESS TO KA-50 BUG-FIXING IS WOEFULLY INADEQUATE UNTIL THIS DAY !  DO THEY NEED KICKBACKS ?

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4 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Why bother with a track.  This is a WELL KNOWN issue, and has been complained about for YEARS.

 

>> IGNORED OR CANCELED ?

 

This is not really a complaint but reality.  All their programmers are working on Hornet.  I assume for few months until release.  2.7 will be released and they'll be busy fixing that bug for few more months.  Then they may look at Blackshark and deem it's not worth their time especially since BS3 is "supposedly" planned.  Then they'll move on to Viper.  Then Apache.  So there's really no point wasting time making tracks for Ka-50 bugs.

 

What I hope is that with 2.7 release, they go back and revisit all the modules.


Edited by Taz1004
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I do not contradict your thoughts, they add up. If ED were willing to look at Black Shark, they probably would issue a short statement to sort out misunderstandings - actually they did not.

I have waited paitently until today, another one or two years (2.7 release) are in no way acceptable ! I appreciate DCS very much, but I forgo (further) knocked up modules or maps.

 

If bug-fixing, product completion and communication even fails, every ED customer should think about the elementary rules of business and let his money talk until his KA-50 module is complete and fully fixed. I myself will do so for sure, notwithstanding the interestings rotor wings to be announced.

 

 


Edited by Fastbreak
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Personally, I can't understand why EO systems are not being developed.  One of the MOST USED missiles, the Maverick, uses EO.  Surely, they want to completely develop the Maverick missile.  Then, they could just port that system over to the Shark, as well as any other aircraft / vehicle that needs it.  As they get into vehicles and infantry, many systems will be using EO.

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I think we all expect too much from Automatic stuff from the 1980's

I think we should be impressed it works at all.

 

shkval first flew on the su-25t prototypes in 1983.

the ka-50 in 1985.

 

yes it's clunky solid state instead of modern micro electronics. it even has a good old cathode ray tube screen.

and the software its using is primitive. its the age of the zx spectrum and BBC computer. for home computing in the UK.

and rotary dial land line analogue telephones..  

the fact a human can see something on the screen and the dumb machine cannot. sounds about right for the time.

state of the art back then, but useless now.

 

where some see bugs, others see as actual limits of the old technology.

we need an expert to say who is right.

 

you can be pretty sure the whole thing has been modernised for modern production ka-52. you just have to look at cockpit photos. they are 30 years newer.

 

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DCS has real issues.  They keep wanting to punch a bunch of new stuff out, but never fix their old stuff.  It is UNREAL that they are working on new RADAR systems, but refuse to bring any effort at making REALISTIC Electro-Optical even though it is an ESSENTIAL system in at least TWO of their aircraft.  Probably more, but I only fly the Shark and Warthog at the moment.  And these two aircraft are their OLDEST products.  I agree with holding back on buying any new aircraft from DCS until they fix the issues with their other aircraft, especially the oldest ones.  I am seriously beginning to lose faith in them.

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Hello folks!

 

 

Dear Quadg,

 

"I think we all expect too much from Automatic stuff from the 1980's

I think we should be impressed it works at all."

 

"where some see bugs, others see as actual limits of the old technology.

we need an expert to say who is right."

 

To specify, today's coding errors, related to 1980's technology simulation, are the problem. Systematically fly, test, read, and understand why KA-50's coding is still less sophisticated, it will become obvious. I explicitly exclude unthinking fanboy comments who are eager to jockey a jack of all trades device instead of looking deeply into a module with its pro and cons on technical or strategic side. Please, do not perceive my clear words as a a hidden (or open) affront to you. 

 

Dear 3WA,

 

"I agree with holding back on buying any new aircraft from DCS until they fix the issues with their other aircraft, especially the oldest ones.  I am seriously beginning to lose faith in them. "

   

Thank you so much that you fully comprehend !!! 

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11 hours ago, Quadg said:

I think we all expect too much from Automatic stuff from the 1980's

I think we should be impressed it works at all.

 

shkval first flew on the su-25t prototypes in 1983.

the ka-50 in 1985.

 

yes it's clunky solid state instead of modern micro electronics. it even has a good old cathode ray tube screen.

and the software its using is primitive. its the age of the zx spectrum and BBC computer. for home computing in the UK.

and rotary dial land line analogue telephones..  

the fact a human can see something on the screen and the dumb machine cannot. sounds about right for the time.

state of the art back then, but useless now.

 

where some see bugs, others see as actual limits of the old technology.

we need an expert to say who is right.

 

you can be pretty sure the whole thing has been modernised for modern production ka-52. you just have to look at cockpit photos. they are 30 years newer.

 

 

This is not a matter of the actual aircraft, be it IRL or in the sim. It's about how the Shkval is simulated. It's using an artificial system that is supposed to mimic the actual contrast-based lock acquisition. Although it works most of the time, there are some obvious issues with it, for example that that it's tied to a specific time of the day. 2100hrs is brighter in summer than in winter. In order to not make it unrealistic, the contrast-lock is then set for during winter time, cause if it was otherwise, you'd be able to lock on targets in total darkness, which would be wrong. Sadly though, since it relative to the winter-season, you end up in missions where you fly 2100hrs during summer, with more than enough sufficient light, and Shkval won't lock on.

 

With said though, Shkval is in general done very very well for the time of the simulation introduction. ED used whatever they had, and it's undeniably good. Most of the quirks can be worked around if you are a little creative or just avoid certain situations, such as real pilots would. The one bug which should be squashed though, is where Shkval all of a sudden starts drifting faster than you can correct it back. That's a glitch that has been long in, ever since BS 2, and is really the only one which can mess up your aiming and approach. In the real helicopter, it wouldn't have this "glitch".

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15 hours ago, 3WA said:

Personally, I can't understand why EO systems are not being developed.  One of the MOST USED missiles, the Maverick, uses EO.  Surely, they want to completely develop the Maverick missile.  Then, they could just port that system over to the Shark, as well as any other aircraft / vehicle that needs it.  As they get into vehicles and infantry, many systems will be using EO.

 

Developing a actually working contrast detection and tracking system is easy as there is a lot of sample codes available to start with if not knowing anything about how those systems work.

 

They already have the actual video/image generator as it is a 3D game. They are developing no the new virtual cameras like new FLIR that is actually based to new thermal factors on models and textures with weather conditions and model statuses instead just having fancy filter for 3D models.

 

The Harrier DMT/TV requires contrast detection system. When it is tried to lock on something, it will check the whole screen for strongest contrast (white) and lock on it by shrinking tracking gate around that and try to track it. This happens in 160 ms period.

 

The Shkval requires contrast detection system. Again similar manner that pilot simply use the targeting gate to define for the computer that what area is to be searched for the contrast and when locking it should resize around the contrast it finds inside that area and track it. Meaning even if you have largest possible targeting gate and you aim it at a white aircraft on dark blue sky (strong contrast) then that max size gate would shrink automatically around that aircraft and dynamically resize itself to stay around it. Pilot is not required to resize the gate first to target size and then try to lock it as there is no other contrast to be tracked. If that contrast would be a white car next to many other bright objects, then pilot would be required to resize the gate as close to that white car to make the computer recognize the car as the strongest contrast and lock on it. If there would be multiple other contrast shape inside that gate on locking gate, the system would generate the contrast map from all these multiple ones and track it. It would be successful until that shape starts to change too much that it brakes the programmed shape and loses a lock - that would happen when that white car that was suppose to be tracked would start moving away from other objects and brakes the shape.

 

The Maverick seekers are same. Requiring a large and clear contrast where to lock on. Pilot is informed that is the contrast proper by showing that crosshair crows around the target shape. And then if the seeker has strong contrast it will be solid instead shaking.

Now we can lock mavericks from unrealistic ranges as we have perfect 1 or 0 lock capabilities. Even when the target is way too small to be locked on, we get maverick locked on tank size targets.

Having a proper FLIR, TV and contrast detection system with a more realistic weather system, we would get a more realistic ranges.

 

This as well is with the targeting pods, their moving target tracking, area tracking, point tracking etc are just unrealistic. There is no such difficulties like with off-set feature that if you can't get lock on the wanted target, then you lock on the nearby target you get lock, and use off-set to move the targeting pod point the wanted target instead tracked one.

 

And a proper contrast detection system as well is required for laser spot trackers. Where not just range affects to laser emission power, but weather as well, the laser spot size would grow, the proper angle is required based the material that is being pointed at and laser seeker needs to come in the (rule of thumb) +/-45 degrees angle from the laser designator line of sight.

This is as well just a contrast detection system, where we play with laser dot with various contrast and power levels and seeker to detect it or not, or does it receive strong enough emission and small enough emission (no bleedout from laser) to lock on and track it.

 

Similar thing is with IR missiles overall (similar as maverick). But now instead just contrast detection system, we would need to have a dual- or triple-seekers. Like example Strela-10M4 we have in game is using a missiles with IR seeker that has three bands, one of them is visible TV seeker that you can't fool with flares. So there is then requirement to build a new logic that where one seeker sees one contrast level in thermal, other sees another kind (flares etc) and third that see the TV kind contrast and then logic how the seeker would determine that what is a real target. Likely all three needs to come to conclusion that target has taken different vector.

 

The contrast detection system can as well be used for a artificial radar emission system. The radars could be calculated as light sources (ray tracing) that has power etc. The target can be taken with the simple ray tracing angle to see if there is enough reflection for the radar to detect it. Now we can throw in the chaff, that we can start to use as a reflector that scatters light at different distances (speeds) and sizes and check when is it outside of the radar field of view etc or when it has too low reflection power and seek the contrast of it and use that to generate the target for logic system what to track.

The ECM system could be done as a variation of the emissions that contrast detection system needs to solve itself, by adjusting the seeker contrast lock system to be oversaturated or react slowly to given manner etc we could get actual systems that can get radars logic behavior be driven away and then just fool them.

 

These kind things could be presented with a scale models, few flashes, flashlights and various other elements like smoke, actual aluminum powder, glitter, etc and all front of the camera and run the videos through a contrast detection program to see that what actually shows up for the camera. Radio waves are just same electromagnetic radiation as light, and these things could be simulated using "invisible light" to run different targeting systems.

 

The trick really would be to run all with the actual contrast detection system that is required to feed a a form detectors etc that then decide what to be tracked or locked on.

Meaning the seeker/camera/radar would never know what it is looking at, like is it a tank, a living tank, a dead tank, a large bomber, a chaff cloud or flare etc. The seeker logic would need to solve by itself that what to track, what it can track, and when it is lost. The seekers would need to get a proper field of views, scan patterns and logics, the seeker head speeds etc. Meaning that flare 15 degree to right of the target is not going to be visible to seeker that has just a 2.5 degree IFOV. There is no die rolling or checking a table "is it a miss" per second but actually run a modeling per seeker, lock etc. For the missiles the server should be responsible to take that task. They are independent systems. For the player targeting system like Shkval or TPOD the player machine is responsible to run it.

 

Edit: example

 

 

 


Edited by Fri13
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On 2/12/2021 at 6:34 PM, IronChancellor said:

@BIGNEWY This thread is still tagged as 'need track replay.' Do I need to make more or is this just an oversight?

 

Overlooked it, will check the tracks now

 

thanks

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On 2/1/2021 at 3:51 PM, Raven434th said:

I'm just guessing here but I think that's EXACTLY what the contrast dials are for??...too boast contrast in order to lock.

 

From the user perspective, that would be easiest way for user (pilot) to program the Shkval computer to receive a optimal contrast to be tracked.

But, if those controls are only for the TV monitor to allow user just get a better visual from the TV depending viewing condition (sun shining inside cockpit, middle of night etc) then it is not to program the Shkval sensors to help it find the contrast.

 

If we look at the Harrier DMT system options, the pilot is given a options to program the FLIR and DMT contrast, brightness etc parameters by selecting target size (heat signature size by the wavelength) and as well the terrain type (smooth greenfields, mountain hills, forest, sea etc) by using just numeric values. Then the system itself just try to work around these programmed values like the engineer has made it to be the optimal one.

 So point is, that with these other systems there is the user (pilot) programming pre-planning and as well while in flight.

 

As there is nothing better to help a computer in challenging situations than human that can see "what the computer sees" and give the human the tools to adjust the what computer sees by increasing contrast, changing the hue, turning color filters On/Off (like harrier has RED and YELLOW filters that physically swap between its TV lens, red for day and yellow for low light) etc. As human can very quickly make an adjustment that where strongest contrast is made for the target to separate it from its background and possibly for future movement.

 

But in KA-50 these does nothing. You can have a pure black blob on the white (white aircraft flying against dark blue sky) and Shkval says "No can do, nothing there, can't see, I am blind...".

 

But the user (pilot) task is to assist the computer to know that what contrast is wanted to be tracked. That is the Shkval target gate size adjustment for. You literally block everything else around that gate for computer to ignore. The computer builds a contrast pattern from the target and starts to track that pattern. Now, in real world those vehicle shapes, colors etc are extremely difficult to see if they try to hide. That is why if the human can't see it, then the device can't see it. But if the target like a tank, cast otherwise a strong shadow on otherwise low contrast scene, you can lock on that contrast and use it. But it helps you only if you get weapon on that contrast that can as well damage the tank next to it, as firing a ATGM on that shadow is no good. So answer is that pilot needs to maneuver and find a new position and get to engagement angle where he gets an wanted contrast for automatic tracking. Or simply aim the weapon manually in..... by saying "fly to that direction".

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