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Is there any possibility of automatic refueling?


magman

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At the end of the day and whatever you call it, DCS is a game.  It's entertainment software and I'm all for having options that maximize the fun for the widest possible audience.

 

It's a timely topic for me because I just started focusing on in-flight refueling and if you asked me 3 weeks ago if I'd ever be able to do it, I would've said it's impossible.  But I'm pretty stubborn and am the type that finds such challenges "fun" so after a couple of weeks of focused practice, I'm finally able to perform air-to-air refueling.  I'm not good at it yet, but I can top off a 60% internal fuel load with 2-3 attempts (on my best days).

 

Would I use an easy-AAR option?  Probably not, but that's just me.  However, I can totally understand how such an option would be great for someone else who isn't as fortunate as I am when it comes to free time or is simply not interested in learning this one thing in a game that has a thousand other things that might offer more entertainment.

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^^^ Well said.  I personally would not use it either as I'm weird and actually enjoy refueling, but I'm also not a fan of someone who wants to limit someone else's enjoyment of a game just because it offends *their* notion of what is and isn't realistic. 

 

Anyone who's flown for real knows how unrealistic any desktop "sim" must by necessity be.  That's not criticism, obviously I'm here because I have a ball with this software... but you gotta understand: it's software.  It's NOT an airplane. 

 

So if someone wants to have fun with it in a different way than you do... why would you possibly care?  You do you.  If an easy mode makes the game more accessible and entertaining to more people, that's a win for EVERYONE. 

 

 

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On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

I think there's a skill mismatch here. I'm presuming when you're flying the Ka-50 in "Simulation" flight mode, you still have the various AP/FD channels connected. If flying an extremely automated helicopter is considered a challenge to you, AAR might just demand more controls coordination than you're presently prepared for. You probably need more of a buildup.

Have you even flown a helicopter?  A Ka-50?

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

That's not to discount AAR. It is in no way easy, and I think for many people they don't want to commit to the practice required to become proficient. Nearly everybody who was put in the time can see that quite clearly. But it's certainly not impossible (there are probably 2 users for which that may actually be true). Otherwise it's months of forum posts of "this is impossible," "we need a cheat mode" followed by a post exclaiming with excitement you've completed a refueling event. And the cycle continues with fresh blood... here we are again.

I wrote I had no idea what a "cheat mode" would look like? Why are you writing this to me?  I was looking for something to give those having trouble learning AAR other than "stand up and fly right".

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

The procedure itself is not "hard." It's quite simple. The "hard" part is developing the skills of precise aircraft control. Both in the hands and in the eyes. People come to AAR without being able to accurately control their aircraft, and without caring about accurate aircraft control. They slam the jet down on the pavement for landing, they don't care about smooth accurate landings. They don't care about accurate pitch on takeoff, or accurate speeds and headings on the departure. You can spectate many players in MP and when the jet runs out of fuel they just eject. They don't care about tight position control in formation flight, don't care about an accurately flown Carrier pattern. Accurately flying the ball, and trying to catch the 3 wire.

I think they do care about flying well.  It is that time issue.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

And I'm pretty sure we can all relate. It becomes a frustrating experience for everybody that tires it. And I can tell you the progress will be extremely slow at first, and you will be immensely satisfied when you accomplish it. And you will accomplish it. Then it will still be a challenge, and you will feel "out of practice" some times, but you'll have otherwise very little issues with it after the initial hurdle is crossed, and you cement your new skills. Then if you stick around you'll see how many of these posts there are

I am not sure why you think I don't know this.  My "nightmare" comment was hyperbole for levity.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

I learned on the A-10C years ago. I don't touch the rudder on any aircraft I AAR.

I actually posted a question " Rudder or Roll for AAR".  I think more people said Rudder.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

I still think this is rationalization by people who haven't developed the coordination and visualization skills yet. It's entirely possible to accomplish it stationary on the earth looking at a screen.

Rationalization or not.  It is still a reality.  I think it is an accepted fact that the more senses you can use the easier something is.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

Many many many real pilots let their inner ear and sense of pressure lead them to their death, and I think desktop pilots convince themselves that these are helpful, because the realities of the experience of motion are so obviously missing from their experience.

I believe this is what they think happened to JFK jr.  But then, he did not have his visual senses and was unfamiliar with the plane.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

It's not supposed to be a substitute for the building of an entirely new set of skills. It only solves the fuel problem. The fuel problem is given as an excuse to implement an entirely new set of code which exists to bypass the building of new skills. I don't think the fuel is ever actually the issue, seeing as how this option is so effortlessly rejected, but so perfectly suitable. If you want immersion of fuel management during a mission, you also have the opportunity to experience (probably) the most realistic AAR experience available. Get up there and experience it. Or divert to a land base. Those are both real options if you want real fuel management.

If the unlimited fuel option was a "perfect substitute" then we would not have all these posts.  And I already have experienced it.  I don't know why you wrote all this to me.  There were others who were obviously more in need of help on AAR.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

Why are you getting behind tankers?

Your words.  "Suddenly you place yourself behind a tanker,"

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On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

Nope, it's the same for every single airplane (at least so far).

Probe and drogue is the same as boom and receptacle?

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

Or you can place 2 aircraft on an empty map and accomplish 99% of what these missions could ever offer.

You just solve ED's interactive training budget.  $0.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

Fancy triggers and dialogue won't somehow magically make that go away. You might think that daunting week is a total waste, but I can argue improvements were made. Maybe at the end of the week you found the tanker, how to call it, or even just generally figured out what way you were going. Nobody flies a week trying to build a skill without making some improvement. Even if they don't feel like it.

You might check on a training put together by Bankler I believe on carrier landings.  Some people seemed happy with it. 

 

On 3/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, randomTOTEN said:

When flying AAR you need to be looking at the tanker, not looking at the HUD, not looking at text on the screen, not listening to a voice, not thinking about the dialogue. Flying the tanker. The levels of expertise and progression are basically handed down from God. 2 jets on a map does this.

 

You're speculating about a lot of this. You're speculating because you're probably at one of the early stages, looking at what feels like an impossible barrier of skill to even approach the next step. Thinking there must be some secret skill, some hidden technique which allows other people to make it look so easy. If they could just show it to you, or tell you how to do it, then things would just go so much faster. Because you keep trying and trying and it never gets better. It can't be like this, there has to be a better way.

 

Sorry OldFalcon,

guess how those people got to where they are now? yep. settle in. it's a slog and it's gonna really try your patience but I assure you there's a light at the end of this tunnel. And you just thought you were gonna shoot missiles huh...

I really don't know why you chose me to level this criticism.   I would rather start up an aircraft than hear a wingman say, "Shack!"  I don't consider a plane unless it has a fully clickable cockpit.  And I am now proficient at AAR on the Hornet and the Harrier.  Got there in the last 2 weeks.  I was fairly close.

 

I will say you got what I would call the most important issue right.  AAR in DCS is about developing a skill.  Developing a skill takes 20 hours to become proficient and 10,000 hours to master.  At least that is what some article on the internet had to say.  I would say AAR is somewhere between those two numbers for most of us.  Perhaps that is the real problem.  For some people they are looking at a lot more than 20 hours to become proficient in AAR.  


Edited by Flyer0001
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  • 3 weeks later...

My single player F/A-18 campaign will include an (already working) auto-tank feature. It will also be possible to take only a certain off-load of tankers too (ie. not to fill up to the brim). It will keep your weapons loadout too of the moment (it will not reset it), but you might lose some system settings in the process (like custom WPs, manual radio freq, TACAN settings).

 

It still requires you to be within a certain range of the tanker and have the tanker frequency selected with the refueling boom out and the aircraft set up for the process. While the campaign's primary philosophy is to provide as close to realistic experience as possible during an OIF deployment, I have included this and a few other small "cheats" if you will to help out people who are not proficient enough yet to do these tasks, but they still want to play and enjoy the rest of the simulation.

 

There's no video of the auto-tank yet, but I'll make if there's a need - although it's nothing spectacular 🙂 There're a few videos of the completed features in certain stages of the development here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh-KXlhfHu7DHkLUI1e-YTw

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  • 3 weeks later...

If you don't want to deal with AAR just enable infinite fuel.

 

 1A100.png?format=1500w  

Virtual CVW-8 - The mission of Virtual Carrier Air Wing EIGHT is to provide its members with an organization committed to presenting an authentic representation of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing operations in training and combat environments based on the real world experience of its real fighter pilots, air intercept controllers, airbosses, and many others.

 

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I totally support the wish for a Auto-Tank feature that can be enable/ disabled in the options and also can be forced to be disabled by server.

 

While I can now AAR, i absolutely understand that some people can't invest their playtime into it or want to get frustrated after work (Overall it's a game and you want to relax somehow).

 

An Auto-Tank option would open up accessibility for noobs and some advanced players that can't AAR in multiplayer server or on multiplayer squadron missions.

 

Infinite Fuel is not really a option for multiplayer.

 

Greetings

 

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On 2/2/2021 at 7:50 AM, magman said:

  After many hours practicing aerial refueling, I quit, I feel overwhelmed and frustrated.
  It is almost impossible without turbulence, with the turbulence activated even worse.

  I can land on the aircraft carrier even in bad weather conditions and at night with almost no problems after
a long time practicing, but with the aerial refueling with more hours trying it becomes an impossible task.
  I can not connect to the hose practically never and the few times that I get it no longer than 2 seconds connected.
  It stop being a beautiful challenge to become a nightmare.

  I know that one of the most difficult tasks for a real pilot is aerial refueling but without a doubt the most difficult
challenge is landing on the CV.
In DCS the scale of difficulty of refueling exceeds that of landing on aircraft carriers and that is not realistic .
I think the difficulty of air refueling at DCS is disproportionate.
 

  If I can land on an aircraft carrier in case III with guarantees, I should also be able to refuel with guarantees after a few hours practicing,
but it is totally frustrating, there is no learning curve.
 
  When I fly in multiplayer, few people want to fly missions that will include aerial refueling due to this extreme and overrated difficulty. 
It is logical, everyone tries to avoid refueling.
  I have been tempted to buy several campaigns for my modules but I know that they will include air refueling in some missions and I do not want
 to get frustrated so at the moment I am not going to buy any.

  ED  IMHO should, to avoid hours of frustration for many of its customers: either calibrate the difficulty of the air refueling or at least give us 
the possibility of automatic air refueling by means of a keyboard key

 

 

 

Automatic In-flight Refueling mode on a real Hornet, I think a real one is doable!  It would no doubt be a later block though.

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This topic has already been the subject of lengthy discussions. The most recent respond from ED is that it is not planned 

 

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On 2/1/2021 at 7:50 PM, magman said:

  After many hours practicing aerial refueling, I quit, I feel overwhelmed and frustrated.
  It is almost impossible without turbulence, with the turbulence activated even worse.

  I can land on the aircraft carrier even in bad weather conditions and at night with almost no problems after
a long time practicing, but with the aerial refueling with more hours trying it becomes an impossible task.
  I can not connect to the hose practically never and the few times that I get it no longer than 2 seconds connected.
  It stop being a beautiful challenge to become a nightmare.

  I know that one of the most difficult tasks for a real pilot is aerial refueling but without a doubt the most difficult
challenge is landing on the CV.
In DCS the scale of difficulty of refueling exceeds that of landing on aircraft carriers and that is not realistic .
I think the difficulty of air refueling at DCS is disproportionate.
 

  If I can land on an aircraft carrier in case III with guarantees, I should also be able to refuel with guarantees after a few hours practicing,
but it is totally frustrating, there is no learning curve.
 
  When I fly in multiplayer, few people want to fly missions that will include aerial refueling due to this extreme and overrated difficulty. 
It is logical, everyone tries to avoid refueling.
  I have been tempted to buy several campaigns for my modules but I know that they will include air refueling in some missions and I do not want
 to get frustrated so at the moment I am not going to buy any.

  ED  IMHO should, to avoid hours of frustration for many of its customers: either calibrate the difficulty of the air refueling or at least give us 
the possibility of automatic air refueling by means of a keyboard key

 

 

You know what happens in the airforce when you say I quit...

 

About the turbulence, you mean wake turbulence? I'll give you a tip, fly lower.

 

Air refueling is really not that hard to do, but it requires patience and practice, lots of those, which many people have and they have done air refueling, they actually did it can you believe it? that impossible thing, some1 actually did.

I am one of those people, yes yes I know I know, no need for applause, thnx thnx /bow 🤷‍♂️

 

Jokes aside, I see you have 4 posts... I don't know how many hours you have in your airplane, probably hornet, but I guess you just started, I was there too, trying to AAR and it was frustrating, but eventually I did it, so can you.

You have to master your stick and throttle, you have to be able to fly formation without looking at the hud, and that takes practice, and flight time.

 

I just did AAR on a public server for fun, I didn't even need it, I did it cause I saw this post;P then I logged off to write this post and go to bed (yep still cant do AAR while typing a post but I'm getting to it:P),

I'm not trying to brag with my skill, I'm simply trying to say that its really not that big of deal once you learn it, and many many people have done it, and don't think they didn't spend time on it, maybe even more time than you will spend on it, but they did it, many did without the push of a key that you are asking for.

 

safe flying!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would even for modding-only avoid making any code/script/API to make this kind of automation available in public builds, because it would just take all the fun and challenge out of these diffcult parts of the sim.

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  • 2 months later...

I grabbed my first basket today. Extremely rewarding. It is frustrating, but like others have noted, just fly a tanker visual cue -I  fly the tanker engine - and whalla "your taking fuel" After the first one, I just kept grabbing one after another. Now all I want to do is AAR. I always disregarded it and spent all my time learning other aspects of the jet, but this one thing makes playing campagns tough. I will not stop doing this until i can do it all the time every time. 

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