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Indian Su-30MKI to Red Flag '08


Kusch

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I have probably seen it myself - also some accusations from the Boyd crowd about low fuel fractions and other fun stuff.

 

In the end, the F-22 has shown itself capable of blowing stuff up at any and all ranges with a ridiculously acceptable attrition ratio.

 

The article that mentions F-5's needs to be taken with a grain of salt; it was an exercise against F-15's originally, where they showed that entering a furball starts to erode the long range technological advantage, and the F-15's size worked against it when fighting F-5's (much more easily visible).

 

HOWEVER, with the F-22 things change a lot: It has excellent maneuverability, countermeasures, and low-observability not to mention a radar that allows it to arrive at the merge with loads more SA than the poor F-5. F-16's got jumped WVR by Raptors and couldn't do anything about it ... what do you think F-5's will do?

 

Yes, it's always true that in a furball things get iffier - this is why for defense alrge numbers of cheap aircraft work. As soon as they're doing anything BUT point defense, they get eaten up by the superior aircraft. That's all there is to this. Vulnerable to F-5's my foot ... to quote you ... an F-5 pilot talking about his engagement with an F-22 ...

 

"We went like this, he went like that, I asked Hollywood 'where'd he go?'"

Hollywood said, "Where'd who goooooooooooo?"

 

:D

 

PS: As for the F-22's mixing with F-15's, this is a logistical issue - the USAF doesn't have enough F-22's to cover everything they'd like, so to maintain sortie rates and airspace coverage they simply must use F-15's as well.

Im talking about a official AF paper i saw something. If i can motivate myself to find it, i know where to find you :D

 

Heck, they even consider F-22s alone are not suitable for A2A, so a war deployment would be mixed up with F-15s. I think this one in the latest Air Force Montly or Janes Defence weekly, i cant remember anymore :|


Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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1. Knows that F-22 is coming

2. Has similar TWR (the MKI doesn't) to stay in the fight at altitude

3. Gets eyes on the 22 before the 22 gets in an advantageous position.

1.EOS+TWS

2.F-22's 1.05 vs. Su-30 1.01 (1.08 vs 1.10 when "guns only").

3.EOS+TWS+2 men crew+higher turn ratio.

a fly in your ointment ;)


Edited by DarkWanderer

You want the best? Here i am...

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I give up on you GG on this matter.

 

If I remember correctly, the guy who said an F-5 (with an advanced SRAAM) was just as much as a threat as an F-22 WVR was an advocate for off-boresight missiles. It was a Navy official who was not involved in any way with the F-22 program - in fact, no DACM was conducted between F-22s and F-5s at the time the statement was issued.

 

Furthermore, Groove, I have to say, GGTharos is right. Red Air F-16 and F-15 pilots have stated with JHMCs and AIM-9X, they can't even lock up the Raptor despite being able to see it with their own eyes. Also consider that F-22s have been armed with AIM-9Ms and are not currently able to operate either JHMCs or AIM-9X, and are frequently out-numbered.

 

In the F-22's first Red Flag exercise, it took 3 F-16s to bring down a single F-22 in a WVR fight. The F-22 splashed one Falcon with an AIM-9M, gunned down another, and was killed by the third in a Sidewinder missile exchange that "killed" both combatants. And this was the only F-22 lost in the entire exercise.

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1.EOS+TWS

2.F-22's 1.05 vs. Su-30 1.01 (1.08 vs 1.10 when "guns only").

3.EOS+TWS+2 men crew+higher turn ratio.

a fly in your ointment ;)

 

TWS is a radar mode, and even the harshest F-22 critics agree that the Raptor is radar stealthy. Failed.

 

You got the thrust ratio for the F-22 wrong already. Failed.

 

The Su-30 has a higher "turn ratio"? Making stuff up. Failed.

 

Three strikes, yeeeeeeeeeeeer out!


Edited by D-Scythe
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Bring this stuff eslewhere you f-22 fanbois. The most pointless threads in this forum have always involved this plane. I begin to wonder whether it's an accident but the cyclic appearance of this crap brought me to the conclsion that this must be one of features of this plane- to get people into pointless discussions. If you ask me the f-22 is a flying piece of sh*t but since it's flying, it attracts my interest.


Edited by =RvE=Tito
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"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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Bring this stuff eslewhere you f-22 fanbois. The most pointless threads in this forum have always involved this plane. I begin to wonder whether it's an accident but the cyclic appearance of this crap brought me to the conclsion that this must be one of features of this plane- to get people into pointless discussions. If you ask me the f-22 is a flying piece of sh*t but since it's flying, it attracts my interest.

 

I'm sorry - I didn't know anyone would get this worked up over, as you put it, such a "pointless discussion" in such a "pointless thread." Personally, I like to exercise the option not to read anything that I deem pointless, but I guess that's just me.

 

I recommend that you go watch The Dark Knight. It'll make you feel better :) I watched it twice.


Edited by D-Scythe
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Good idea. Have no clue what that movie is but it couldn't be less "interesting" than the f-22 argue here. BTW, I heard the raptor will kick a$$ in the new Star Wars episode. The days of the dark side are counted!

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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TWS meant Threat Warning System, which's part is RWR. Couldn't be radar mode in that context. Making stuff up.

Well, i've looked to a wrong source. 1.05 and 1.25 vs 1.00 and 1.20+, but do you think 0.5m/s^2 gives a huge advantage? It's making stuff up...

You cant say much more than me on that - the F-22's full TTC are still classified. Making stuff up.

 

Red Air F-16 and F-15 pilots have stated with JHMCs and AIM-9X, they can't even lock up the Raptor despite being able to see it with their own eyes.

...while the MiG-29A made in 1970 can easily pick it by the EOS.

 

I see your arguments, but it's definitely wrong to assume total supremacy of something, by comparing it to own archaic equipment. Remember that the only advantage of USA planes over Russian ones were the radars and the AMRAAM...


Edited by DarkWanderer

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Good idea. Have no clue what that movie is but it couldn't be less "interesting" than the f-22 argue here. BTW, I heard the raptor will kick a$$ in the new Star Wars episode. The days of the dark side are counted!

 

It's the new Batman movie that's breaking records all over the place.

 

TWS meant Threat Warning System, which's part is RWR. Couldn't be radar mode in that context. Making stuff up.

Well, i've looked to a wrong source. 1.05 and 1.25 vs 1.00 and 1.20+, but do you think 0.5m/s^2 gives a huge advantage? It's making stuff up...

You cant say much more than me on that - the F-22's full TTC are still classified. Making stuff up.

 

...while the MiG-29A made in 1970 can easily pick it by the EOS.

 

I see your arguments, but it's definitely wrong to assume total supremacy of something, by comparing it to own archaic equipment. Remember that the only advantage of USA planes over Russian ones were the radars and the AMRAAM...

 

Are you the DarkWanderer because you're always in the dark about things? :harhar: Wow, that was a terrible joke. Honestly, Batman, and the Joker, watch it.

 

Anyway, I will elect to pull the ejection handles on this pointless thread.

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The F-22's TWR is closer to 1.3-1.5 ... even the F-15C has a better TWR than the Su-30MKI at altitude.

EOS range is very small against an F-22 - we're talking 20km at best head-on, likely much, much closer still for missiles.

The threat warning system has to deal with the F-22's LPI radar, which is already difficult to pick up, and in a team environment does not even need to be turned on.

The F-22 also runs an entire ESM suite, making it single-handedly capable of getting a weapons firing solution on any radar emitter without a squeak from its own emitters.

The radar can jam the daylights out of anyone else's. It's a much bigger, more sophisticated system than the SPJ's most fighters carry. It can literally fool you to shoot missiles into thin air.

Stealth - if an F-15's radar has an 8nm range against an F-22, what do you think a little AMRAAM or R-77 radar range will be against it?

Basically, the F-22 is designed to reduce the opponent's SA to the point where you won't know what hit you, aerodynamics and other fun factors aside.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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F-22 is not built for super maneuverability. It will lose to TV flankers in WVR fight.

 

I haven't read beyond this yet, but If we're talking guns only, maneuverability doesn't matter worth SQUAT if you out-power your opponent. The Japanese learned this the hard way in WWII. If you are more powerful and can fight at higher altitudes than your opponent, you have absolutely no business losing unless you have a "pants-on-head" level of retardedness.

 

Oh, I forgot, I'm on your ignore list. I wonder why? :D :P

 

EDIT: btw, the Raptor is painted green and tastes like candy! Spouting off nonsense is fun!


Edited by RedTiger
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Are you the DarkWanderer because you're always in the dark about things?

Have nothing to do with an ignoramus.

 

GGTharos

1.TWR 1.3 is a crap.

2.We were talking about 1v1 WVR, while 20km is QUITE OUT of visual range.

3.So, you do think composite hull means lower exhaust temperature?..

You want the best? Here i am...

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Any sources on that one ?

 

http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041831

 

"Invisibility - even with eyes on

 

When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

 

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

 

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

 

Turn and burn

 

Thrust vectoring, internal weapons mounting and increased power all contribute to the Raptor's maneuvering advantage. From the cockpit of the F-22, Capt. Brian Budde, 94th FS pilot, explained the F-22 is able to sustain more than nine Gs for much longer than the F-15, without running out of airspeed. From the pilot's perspective, the F-22 "is more power than you know what to do with," said Captain Budde. So much power, in fact, the F-22 enjoys capabilities alien to legacy fighters."

 

Have nothing to do with an ignoramus.

 

So...the fact that you used the word "ignoramus"...does that make you not an ignoramus? You see, I can throw out big words as well to sound smart - pseudo-intellectualism.

 

See?


Edited by D-Scythe
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Have nothing to do with an ignoramus.

 

GGTharos

1.TWR 1.3 is a crap.

 

Let's see. Loaded weight is 64500lbs. The official engine rating is 35000+, unofficially a pilot said 39000. Using just the official figure, you get 1.08TWR on takeoff. By the time you've got to a fight you've burned off a few lbs of fuel - say half, so he has 10000 dished out. His TWR is now 1.28.

According to what I just heard from an F-15 crew chief however they get 39000lbs out of each engine. More in emergency mode. So now takeoff TWR is 1.2 and combat is closer to 1.4, like the streak eagle. Oh my. I guess those pilots weren't lying after all when making that comparison.

 

The F-22 also flies clean, so any aircraft that faces it with stores and pylons hanging off of it, is starting totake TWR penalty against that drag.

 

2.We were talking about 1v1 WVR, while 20km is QUITE OUT of visual range.

 

So what's the EOS advantage here? None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nil. The AIM-9X makes an excellent EOS, with wider gimbals! ;)

 

3.So, you do think composite hull means lower exhaust temperature?..

 

 

Do you think exhaust can't be cooled or masked? The F-22 does exactly that. Head on IR shots have always been seeker-limited.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Bring this stuff eslewhere you f-22 fanbois. The most pointless threads in this forum have always involved this plane. I begin to wonder whether it's an accident but the cyclic appearance of this crap brought me to the conclsion that this must be one of features of this plane- to get people into pointless discussions. If you ask me the f-22 is a flying piece of sh*t but since it's flying, it attracts my interest.

 

I agree with you that these threads get tiresome. TBH, I'm just amazed by the "anti-Raptor" fanbois. These threads are the equivalent of someone spewing forth praise for the F-86 Sabre and someone trying to vehemently convince him that the La-7 could totally waste it "if it got wvr".

 

Can't we argue about planes of the same generation? I like the F-15 vs. Flanker ones so much better. :smartass:

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I see you can't do anything but throwing words.

 

Hey, you can always PM me if you feel like throwing some mud. Cause that post was rather pointless. And hurtful - what a terrible thing to say....


Edited by D-Scythe
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39000

Ok, believe you on that one.

So what's the EOS advantage here? None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nil. The AIM-9X makes an excellent EOS, with wider gimbals!

That's what you all are about... 20 km is OUTSIDE the visual range, so, when combat is performed WITHIN the visual range, then it's inside the 20km range.

 

Do you think exhaust can't be cooled or masked? The F-22 does exactly that.

The masking of exhaust by lowering its temperature (mixing w/air, etc.) means losing much of engine thrust. Either TWR advantage either this.

 

These threads are the equivalent of someone spewing forth praise for the F-86 Sabre and someone trying to vehemently convince him that the La-7 could totally waste it "if it got wvr".

Yeah, but why does the other side often seems like kids saying "my father has longer arms"?..

 

Sorry for interrupting your evening pray on F-22 pic...

You want the best? Here i am...

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