Indian Su-30MKI to Red Flag '08

[D-Scythe]

Yeah, but why does the other side often seems like kids saying "my father has longer arms"?..

 

That's not his arm bud ;)

[mvsgas]

The masking of exhaust by lowering its temperature (mixing w/air, etc.) means losing much of engine thrust. Either TWR advantage either this.

All modern jet engine want to cool the air more by mixing the combusted or burn air with bypass air form N2 or air coming from N1 or first stage of compression, hence call hight by pass turbo fan engines. This allows higher compressions and ensures engines can have longer hours between overhauls. Some older jet engine like to increase the temperature of the exhaust to diminished the smoke. Newer engine lack this problem with better fuels and better mixing burner chambers so this higher temps are no required. Also, jet engine use cooler bypass air to cool combustion chamber itself, the HPT, HPT nozzle LPT blades and the entire exhaust duct, this helps the engine thrust and also prevents burn troughs.

Cooler air is relative speaking, considering some of the by pass air on some engine is as high a 600C, but still cooler that the 900C+ coming from he combustion chamber.

My point is cooling air is not a bad thing, that is why older jets carry water to increase their thrust, by cooling air, and it would not diminish thrust, AFAIK.

[GGTharos]

That's what you all are about... 20 km is OUTSIDE the visual range, so, when combat is performed WITHIN the visual range, then it's inside the 20km range.

 

I'll ask you again. What's the advantage of EOS over radar in this case? At such close ranges it doesn't matter which sensor you use.

 

The masking of exhaust by lowering its temperature (mixing w/air, etc.) means losing much of engine thrust. Either TWR advantage either this.

So are you now talking about shooting after the merge, or before? Because now this is where things become important. The F-22 will win a shot in the face (IR or radar lock FIRST), and after the 3/9 line pass, if will also bring the nose around FIRST, and bring missiles to bear FIRST, thanks to JHMCS and AIM-9's 180deg gimbal.

You don't necessarily have to compromize your IR signature for TWR in head-on passes. The fuselage already masks your exchaust. This is ALREADY KNOWN and even noted in the mig and flanker manuals. Head on IR shots are seeker-limited. The F-22 also has enormous TWR, AND is IR-supressed. the F-15 has already enjoyed higher altitude energy performance against the Su-27 and Su-30 in just about all their incarnations. The F-22 does even better than the F-15. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Edited July 24, 2008 by GGTharos

[mvsgas]

On tis image you can see the cooler by pass air area and the core (N2) of a F-110-GE-100. The blades you are looking at are the LPT ,low pressure turbine that runs the first stage compressor (N1)

This is a exhaust nozzle liner, note the cooling hole designed to mix cooler bypass air with air from the combustion chamber to increase thrust, prevent burnt troughs with AB on and extent the life of the metal in this area.

 

P.S.

You can see the same this in a AL-31FP

Edited July 24, 2008 by mvsgas

[Esac_mirmidon]

"Can't we argue about planes of the same generation? I like the F-15 vs. Flanker ones so much better."

 

This is the first smart thing i read in this threat after F-22 -Flanker discussion started.

[mvsgas]

How long does Red flag run for? Are the SU-30 still in Nellis AFB?

[RedTiger]

 

 

Yeah, but why does the other side often seems like kids saying "my father has longer arms"?..

 

Cuz he does?

 

Sorry for interrupting your evening pray on F-22 pic...

 

Hey, if that's directed at me, don't count me in as an F-22 fanboi! I call them like I see them. For the record, Russian aircraft, and more specifically Soviet aircraft and their whole lasting legacy, fascinate me to no end. If I could have any fighter jet made civy-capable to tool around in, it'd probably be a MiG-29 with big 'ol red stars just to laugh my ass off at the looks I'd get.

 

I DO, like I said, call them like I see them. I may want a MiG-29 to fly around in and screw with people, but I'm not going to sit here and seriously compare them favorably to aircraft from an entirely new generation! ;) Show me a finished and fully-fielded PAK FA (airshow displays, aerobatic demonstrations don't count!)...now you're talkin! And if, I had to actually fight in one of these things...like for real...I can't honestly say I'd want anything from Sukhoi or Mikoyan.

Edited July 24, 2008 by RedTiger
SPELLIN' GUD

[Pilotasso]

People realy have to stop calling fanboys when they do not agree with each others.

[Guest Syncho]

2 on 2 F-22s vs Su-30MKI`s WVR anyone ?

 

Would be interesting to see the results.

 

Not really the SU-30MKI has a poor TWR compared to the Raptor. The IAF lost in their MKI's in a guns mock fight to the Eurofighter in operation "Indradhanush" at RAF Waddington.

 

It's true the IAF refused to turn radar and ECM on!, instead the IAF's SU's were assisted by RAF Tornado's radar. :megalol:

 

In any form of Aerial warfare every penny of my money would be on the Raptor in a SU-30MKI v's F22A clash, The F-22 is overkill though, I think the F-15C is more than capable.

 

Anyone who honestly believes that a SU-30MKI has any chance of any type of win over a Raptor is just plain dumb and totally un-educated. And as for the PAK-FA it's a copy cat that will have no way near the amount of money invested into it like the Raptor has, there's already rumours that the PAK-FA is being cancelled.

 

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7655

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Syncho

[RedTiger]

And as for the PAK-FA it's a copy cat that will have no way near the amount of money invested into it like the Raptor has, there's already rumours that the PAK-FA is being cancelled.

 

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7655

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

I hesitate to throw around the term "copy cat" even if it is true. I think its arrogant to the point of being superstitiously so, and In the end, a fighter being a copy cat isn't going to be any consolation to the opposing air force that has its planes shot out of the sky. Don't misinterpret that statement as any sort of favor for the PAK-FA, either. :)

 

As for your link, I've read that thread before. Didn't everyone come to the conclusion that the rumor of its cancellation false? Personally, I think we'll see it. I'm not optimistic about the numbers put in service though.

Edited July 26, 2008 by RedTiger
Consolation came out as "consolidation"...?

[Groove]

Thanks for the source D-Scythe.

[Vekkinho]

Didn't everyone come to the conclusion that the rumor of its cancellation false? Personally, I think we'll see it. I'm not optimistic about the numbers put in service though.

 

When Mihail Pogosyan (general director OKB Suhoi) announced approx. 70 Su-35 airframes to be built for Russian Airforce within next 3 or 4 years he also said that this move fills the gap between 4th and 5th generation figter (PAK-FA). No word on cancelling PAK-FA project!

[Kusch]

[mvsgas]

great pic man

[mikoyan]

Not really the SU-30MKI has a poor TWR compared to the Raptor. The IAF lost in their MKI's in a guns mock fight to the Eurofighter in operation "Indradhanush" at RAF Waddington.

 

It's true the IAF refused to turn radar and ECM on!, instead the IAF's SU's were assisted by RAF Tornado's radar. :megalol:

 

In any form of Aerial warfare every penny of my money would be on the Raptor in a SU-30MKI v's F22A clash, The F-22 is overkill though, I think the F-15C is more than capable.

 

Anyone who honestly believes that a SU-30MKI has any chance of any type of win over a Raptor is just plain dumb and totally un-educated. And as for the PAK-FA it's a copy cat that will have no way near the amount of money invested into it like the Raptor has, there's already rumours that the PAK-FA is being cancelled.

 

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7655

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

It actually happened the other way , the RAF admitted that the su-30MKI was more maneuverable, they never say who won anyway

[Vekkinho]

It actually happened the other way , the RAF admitted that the su-30MKI was more maneuverable, they never say who won anyway

 

RAF said?!!

 

Which planes did RAF use?! Typhoons or F.3?

 

Typhoons are pesky lil' devils, perhaps most advanced delta design ATM and watching it live during airshow displays really impressed me. Perhaps most maneuverable aircraft without thrust vectoring nozzles. I believe EF2K outturned SU-30MKI is dogfight scenario!

[Teknetinium]

.

[Teknetinium]

Let's see. Loaded weight is 64500lbs. The official engine rating is 35000+, unofficially a pilot said 39000. Using just the official figure, you get 1.08TWR on takeoff. By the time you've got to a fight you've burned off a few lbs of fuel - say half, so he has 10000 dished out. His TWR is now 1.28.

According to what I just heard from an F-15 crew chief however they get 39000lbs out of each engine. More in emergency mode. So now takeoff TWR is 1.2 and combat is closer to 1.4, like the streak eagle. Oh my. I guess those pilots weren't lying after all when making that comparison.

 

The F-22 also flies clean, so any aircraft that faces it with stores and pylons hanging off of it, is starting totake TWR penalty against that drag.

 

 

 

So what's the EOS advantage here? None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nil. The AIM-9X makes an excellent EOS, with wider gimbals! ;)

 

 

 

 

Do you think exhaust can't be cooled or masked? The F-22 does exactly that. Head on IR shots have always been seeker-limited.

 

So how do U use the 9x if its stored inside the F-22 ?

[Pilotasso]

The MKI can turn arround on a dime in benign stall conditions wich the typhoon cant replicate. That maybe the origins of RAf's staff. However there are many aspects of manueverability. Typhoons sustained perfomance at altitude IMHO is probably better since its aspect ratio is bigger, lower wing loading and all surfaces providing lift as oposed to the flankers tail planes downlift.

 

That being said anyone could have won. Spanish typhoons get spanked by PoAF F-16's in scripted exercises more often than their pilots like to admit (theres a vid out there), even though the typhoons are recognized as vastly superior to the F-16 at altitude by the viper pilots (down low things are more even), So I would not be surprised that the victor of those exercises in the UK to be any number of pilots rather than one single type of aircraft.

 

Scripted exercises are often WVR fights and BVR capabilities wich would give anyone advantage at a merge is often not simulated.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Pilotasso

[GGTharos]

You stick it out on its rail. But it's a moot point; the F-22's radar outperforms any EOS out there (actually just about any radar will outperform an EOS).

If you're referring to me saying that you could use the AIM-9X as a make-shift IRST, it was a half-joke. There are practical barriers to that (seeker coolant availability, small aperture compared to actual IRST's, etc etc. But in a pinch, you could - I just have no idea what possible advantage it would have over the AN/APG-77)

 

So how do U use the 9x if its stored inside the F-22 ?

[504Goon]

So how do U use the 9x if its stored inside the F-22 ?

 

AIM-9X is LOAL capable. And when it comes to using the Mike, Sidewinder uses LAU-141/A Trapeze launcher in the F-22 which will extend the missile out of the bay prior to launch to allow the seeker to acquire the target. Of course same applies with the 9X too, it will extend the missile out of the bay prior to the launch.

[Pilotasso]

the moment you arm an 9X to fire the helmet will cue it as if it was an IRST. Actualy the same can be donne with just about all modern seekers as long as the aircraft is made compatible with the helmet, you just have a much more limited angle of view with the 9L/M missiles, wich is what we gor right now. The F-22 doesnt have the needed helmet implementation yet, though it can certainly shoot anyone off boresight using the radar alone.

 

So how do U use the 9x if its stored inside the F-22 ?

 

if you look closely to the F-22's side bays you will see AIM-9M sticking outwards ;) , not 9X's so I guess no LOAL capability is required. Infact that capability is being discouraged from use at this time.

 

this is the main reason why 9X's are not to be cleared from the F-35's internal belly bays anytime soon (only externaly), although it can certainly be donne on a technical basis.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Pilotasso

[Teknetinium]

AIM-9X is LOAL capable. And when it comes to using the Mike, Sidewinder uses LAU-141/A Trapeze launcher in the F-22 which will extend the missile out of the bay prior to launch to allow the seeker to acquire the target. Of course same applies with the 9X too, it will extend the missile out of the bay prior to the launch.

 

Thats what I thought. Thank u

[Teknetinium]

Like a been pointing out before, What make the F-22 distinguish from the rest of fighters is the engines, there is no EOS or radar that will save u from them.

And pilots talking about not be able to fix their systems on F-22 in visual range should try the Old soviet made EOS instead of radar.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Teknetium

[504Goon]

In visual range i don't see how it can be problematic to track the target, this time the F-22. If it's in visual range, then you can already see it, no need for a radar or EOS to track it, just get the tone and fox 2. The problem is how to get to weapons employment parameters, before the other guy in the F-22 will be able to do that.