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Aerial Refueling


Irishlad200000

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The funny thing is I'm a RL pilot and own a light sports aircraft! Can I bloody get the basket!!!!? NO.

 

An issue I'm having is when I'm close to the right distance to connect, what appears to be Wake Turbulence knocks me off. Is anyone else having the same issue?

 

I prefer making my own missions. What way, Alt and speed is better to set the tanker up?

 

Do you all use a racetrack or straight waypoints? What G/S do you set the tanker at?

 

I'm loving the module, but when you need too many Ext Tanks, the weapon load is restricted! I need to nail the refueling to get the most out of it. Syria is bloody massive and some of the better tgts are too far from the coast or neighbouring States!

 

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

 

 

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You can disable wake turbulence in the game options, you know... I also think it's over-modeled a bit but who knows? I've never been up there in a fighter jet so I have no idea if it would be tossed around so easily.
In my training I was warned of the old 737 in front, to give decent separation or the washing machine effect would happen. I have landed at commercial airports, but luckily have not experienced it! I would have thought at higher speeds and altitude it would be less of an effect. I cruise in RL between 90-130kts. In the sim surely at 300 plus it shouldn't effect it too much!75e81dc269d72b3378f0ec81ac80888c.jpg

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You ever seen this? 
Wake Turbulence Visualization - YouTube

Also, speaking of IRL, I had it once when flying towards the Malverns, in UK, in a R22. That was orographic lift+the associated turbulence, sufficient to make me s**t myself right there and deviated from course... 
OR
an EC135 that for some reason decided to fly 100ft above me when I was training sloped terrain landings and hover handling. The downwash felt like a big hammer hit the whole airframe but the R22 stayed afloat... So yeah it's there but in my limited experience it is more scary than anything else. OFC severe turbulence can rip off wings and the like but... IDK, the way it's modeled in DCS seems overboard to me. 

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Wake is modeled very simplisticly and somewhat unrealistically in DCS.  Basically, from what I've seen it's one effect that interfaces the same way with every module.  No variability seems to exist for relative weights of generating and encountering aircraft, or generating aircraft's configuration or g loading.  A Hornet experiences wake from a straight and level KC-135 pretty much identically to the way a Spitfire experiences wake from another Spitfire in a dogfight.  That's like saying your LSA will be affected identically by wake from a 777 and another LSA 😉.

 

It's distracting / immersion-breaking enough that my inclination would be to leave wake off, but I don't because most servers have it enabled and I want to stay in practice. 

 

But yes - approaching the tanker correctly is the key to avoiding wake.  I don't come from the side as suggested above - maybe that works too - but I come from below, lined up with the basket, and ease up to it as I approach.  There's a sight picture that makes this automatic: put the pod that the hose comes out of between the 2 panes of glass visible at the top of your HUD.  Set it just slightly offset to the right of center.  Then just keep it there as you slowly approach the tanker.  That'll start you well below the tanker when you're farther away, and bring your probe right up to the basket as you approach... and it'll keep you out of the wake (for the most part... you'll still get a little rolling moment but no violent upset).

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I've had run ins with wake turbulence in RL and you do shat your pants. The hornet behind the KC135 is fairly realistic to what happens [although I've never a) flown a hornet or b) AAR in RL], a sudden snap roll and you're at 90 degrees. Fortunately in RL I was able to correct.. obviously. That being said, it was on final behind an already landed airliner (I was in Chieftain). You only make that mistake once, and from then on you ALWAYS stay above their path and hence the wake turbulence. I'm not sure how DCS models it, but in RL the wake turbulence comes off mostly the wingtips in a conical shape and drifts back and down while widening, the further back it gets the weaker it gets. It always drifts with wind, so if there's a stiff cross wind it will blow with the wind, which sometimes makes it worse as the upwind "cone" will blow straight down the runway instead of dissipating to the side.

Now as one of the above poster has said the proper approach to a tanker is to form up on the left wing then when cleared in to move behind. Ideally you could avoid the wake turbulence by staying same level as the wing then descend slightly to the basket height when in position. I would imagine the wake turbulence is streaming back quite straight for a time before descended at cruise; but also the wake turbulence is least at cruise compared to slow and dirty on approach. 

The best advice I received when learning AAR is to make correction half of what you think you should, keep repeating this as a mantra when AAR and it will become second nature. It will help you to not over correct which is what leads to the pilot induced oscillation; that's when you need to pull back, settle, and try again. Also, RELAX, you WILL grip your stick WAY too tight, I still do it and need to remind myself to relax the grip; griping too tight also creates over correction. In RL video's the pilots will literally finger tip the stick to avoid choking it; that's very hard to do with our sim as the forces just aren't the same. It's all about being smooth. It's a hard skill to achieve, but once you get it... you've got it, it becomes a tool in your toolbox and you wonder why it was SO damn hard before. But it's also a perishable skill, like carrier traps, you will get rusty quickly. 

Technically the very by the book tanker formation is to fly low up to form on left wing of tanker, slide over to your designated basket, once done you slide right again to form up on the tankers right wing. Then when leaving you fly high and away. This whole "loop" creates a clear path for approaching "flight wings" and departing.

I recommend using the instant action missions to practice, and stick with it for like a good 30mins to 45 mins (the time will LITERALLY FLY by). Any longer though and your nerves are shot and you need a break before trying again.

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Try to approach from the side, slightly lower than the wing. I’m unsure if it’s “proper”, but I don’t really experience the turbulence at all when I’m doing my business up there, even as you creep up to the basket. 
 

in my own mission, I’m setting my tanking aircraft at 15-30000ft, 275-325kts.

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I found that the absolute key thing with F18 AAR is to forget the basket altogether, just block it out from your active vision.  Form up on the wing tip light, slightly low and around 2 hose lengths back and concentrate fully on the fuel hose pod.

 

Drift across, still under the wing until lined up and stable then push up to the hose while focused on the pod, not the basket.

 

Sounds counterintuitive to ignore the thing you are actually trying to hit, but the extra distance to the hose pod smooths out minor variations and adjustments a lot and you stay a lot more stable.  Then its just a case of getting the picture of where you are when your connected and bedding in the muscle memory, it takes practice but a couple of hours after you get it you will wonder what all the fuss was about...

 

In missions I usually use a racetrack orbit at 25k and 350knts which gives me a nice comfortable slot for by throttle arm position.

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2 hours ago, flaashheart said:

I found that the absolute key thing with F18 AAR is to forget the basket altogether, just block it out from your active vision.  Form up on the wing tip light, slightly low and around 2 hose lengths back and concentrate fully on the fuel hose pod.

 

Drift across, still under the wing until lined up and stable then push up to the hose while focused on the pod, not the basket.

 

Sounds counterintuitive to ignore the thing you are actually trying to hit, but the extra distance to the hose pod smooths out minor variations and adjustments a lot and you stay a lot more stable.  Then its just a case of getting the picture of where you are when your connected and bedding in the muscle memory, it takes practice but a couple of hours after you get it you will wonder what all the fuss was about...

 

In missions I usually use a racetrack orbit at 25k and 350knts which gives me a nice comfortable slot for by throttle arm position.

 

I sure hope so cause man I sure am struggling learning this one at this time.

 

Thanks for the input,

Don B

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Just to add my 2  cents  worth had  similar  issues always  had  trouble  hooking  up   usually  took me  around  4  to  6  attempts   during the  day  forget  about  night  time,  since  using  vr  now  that made  a  huge  amount  of  difference   got  no issues  at  night  time  or day  time,  usually  the  most attempts  is usually  on the  3  time but   most  time   its  the  first  attempt

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2 minutes ago, pete_auau said:

Just to add my 2  cents  worth had  similar  issues always  had  trouble  hooking  up   usually  took me  around  4  to  6  attempts   during the  day  forget  about  night  time,  since  using  vr  now  that made  a  huge  amount  of  difference   got  no issues  at  night  time  or day  time,  usually  the  most attempts  is usually  on the  3  time but   most  time   its  the  first  attempt

 

Yeah I am already using VR so hopefully I will be able to get it here soon.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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13 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah I am already using VR so hopefully I will be able to get it here soon.

just  takes  abit  of  time, once  you  get  it  than  you will  always will  dont  give  up,  main thing  is  dont  rush  it


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I saw a tip and after that, I can air to air refuel everytime like a pro. Slide up, connect 1st time, fill up, slide to the right.

 

Tip use AP ATTH, more so around the time your ready to connect, then only use trim for any up and down movements, leveing you to only use stick for horizontal movments. What you will find is the AP will alow you to move becasue your movemnt are so small, but it dampens them out making refueling so easy. You need to control your speed ofc for forward and back.


Edited by Nyxx
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15 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

I saw a tip and after that, I can air to air refuel everytime like a pro. Slide up, connect 1st time, fill up, slide to the right.

 

Tip use AP ATTH, more so around the time your ready to connect, then only use trim for any up and down movements, leveing you to only use stick for horizontal movments. What you will find is the AP will alow you to move becasue your movemnt are so small, but it dampens them out making refueling so easy. You need to control your speed ofc for forward and back.

 

 

Yeah I saw that tip in one of the refueling Youtube clips. Will be giving it a try when I resume.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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4 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah I saw that tip in one of the refueling Youtube clips. Will be giving it a try when I resume.

 

you will get it... you can see the common theme here, we've ALL BEEN THERE! that's why were so encouraging because we all struggled at first with AAR, and we've all achieved it and can now do it without much effort. Keep at it, you WILL get it!

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Speaking only for myself, there were 3 things I was doing wrong :

 

  1. Rushing it.  If you make sure you're nicely trimmed before moving in to connect, it will make it a lot easier.  The less you have to fight your own aircraft, the more you can focus on the task at hand.
  2. Focusing on the basket.  Once I focused on the refueling pod under the wing, and just used peripheral vision for the basket, I was able to successfully connect on most attempts.  Chasing the basket is a recipe for frustration.
  3. Tensing up.  Right before fueling up I make sure to relax, and that has made a massive difference.

 I'm definitely not the best at it, but I can AAR pretty easily in the 16 and 18.

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Thanks guys!

I will be having another go with it tomorrow, maybe that will be the day!

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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On 2/3/2021 at 11:39 PM, Irishlad200000 said:

 

The funny thing is I'm a RL pilot and own a light sports aircraft! Can I bloody get the basket!!!!? NO.

 

RL Pilot here too -but I don't think that was of any benefit at all to me learning how to AAR, so don't be discouraged. AAR is a whole new thing of it's own.

 

What did help me was learning to fly formation on someone else's wing (or the Tanker's wing).  

 

As mentioned above by someone else - the main difference was when flying formation I wasn't chasing a single point just in front of me - I was observing the whole aircraft and flying formation with the aircraft . When I was AAR I was focusing on the small basket - and that was my biggest issue.

 

It's like driving a car. If we focus on the road 20m in front of us to stay centre, we'll be left and right - but if we focus on the road a mile or more in front our movements will be more subtle, and a smoother more controlled ride.

 

So - once I switched to flying formation with the AAR aircraft and ignoring the basket - it made a world of difference. But it's hard to do - because subconsciously we're going to want to pay attention to the basket anyway - which is where I found flying formation without a basket for practice really made a difference. 

 

Other things are to get stable behind the aircraft, and anticipate lag by doing on movement and then another movement shortly after to counteract it before seeing the result. 

 

I want to move forward a few feet what I do is increase throttle for half a second or so, and then put it back to where it was - before I even see the effects of my movement and then wait for the aircraft to move forward and stabalise.  I found if I tried to chase the formation instead (by move throttle forward to get closer and then waiting until I saw the results and then pulled back) - it would be too late, and I'd have to pull back further on the throttle to back off, and then I'd have to go forward again, getting into an oscillation.

 

I had exactly the same results when moving up and down. If I pulled back a little and waited to see the results I would get myself into PIO which would get worse. Conversely - if I pulled back, slightly counted half a second or so and then pushed forward by the same amount for the same time and then went neutral again ignoring what was happening outside, I found the end result (which was a big laggy) would be me moving up a little. I then learned to adjust the amount and time for different distances with experience. 

 

The problem with AAR is that you can't be reactive - you must be proactive and get ahead of what your movements will be.

 

If you have wake turbulence, other turbulence or weather turned on I'd suggest turning it off - until you get familiar and comfortable doing it without these, and then introducing them as well. 

 

The most important thing though - is that it doesn't come quickly. I've had many countless hours of practice before getting to a point where I can be confident I'll be able to hook up (even if it's not great). If you're getting frustrated - leave and come back later. By pushing more and more when frustrating you're probably going to undo good work and teach yourself more bad habits. 

 

And once you manage to hook up the next trick is staying there. Again that's more about picking a point on the fuselage of the aircraft and the wing in front to fly formation with - and ignoring the basket.

 

HTH


Edited by Dangerzone
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Great advice thanks much!

Having high hopes for tomorrow.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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I'll 2nd a bunch of the above.  My 2 key points while learning are: DO NOT look at the basket -- if you use your peripheral vision to keep an eye on it you'll naturally dampen your movements and help yourself out (once you get it down, then you can look at it, but not while you're learning and getting proficient at it).  As soon as you start oscillating, just back off a bit and try again.  You'll drive yourself nuts and never get anywhere if you try to chase an oscillation.  The 3rd would be to just keep at it and eventually it will click once or twice to hook up for 10 or 20 seconds and it only gets easier from there (until the day you go to refuel and you suddenly have no ability to do so 🤪.  Fortunately it usually comes back as quickly as it disappeared later that day or the next.  Not sure what causes it 😀).  Personally I'd avoid using the autopilot trick as eventually you'll likely want to learn properly at some point, so take the grief now rather than go through the frustration again later when you decide to stop using it.

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4 minutes ago, rob10 said:

I'll 2nd a bunch of the above.  My 2 key points while learning are: DO NOT look at the basket -- if you use your peripheral vision to keep an eye on it you'll naturally dampen your movements and help yourself out (once you get it down, then you can look at it, but not while you're learning and getting proficient at it).  As soon as you start oscillating, just back off a bit and try again.  You'll drive yourself nuts and never get anywhere if you try to chase an oscillation.  The 3rd would be to just keep at it and eventually it will click once or twice to hook up for 10 or 20 seconds and it only gets easier from there (until the day you go to refuel and you suddenly have no ability to do so 🤪.  Fortunately it usually comes back as quickly as it disappeared later that day or the next.  Not sure what causes it 😀).  Personally I'd avoid using the autopilot trick as eventually you'll likely want to learn properly at some point, so take the grief now rather than go through the frustration again later when you decide to stop using it.

 

Yeah I figure I am first going to keep trying without the autopilot and see how I get along.

I do have a slight disadvantage though, as I have no vision right of center. So I can't really see the basket unless I look right at it.

Might make it a little tougher on me learning but am determined to get it.

 

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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2 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah I figure I am first going to keep trying without the autopilot and see how I get along.

I do have a slight disadvantage though, as I have no vision right of center. So I can't really see the basket unless I look right at it.

Might make it a little tougher on me learning but am determined to get it.

 

That might make the "DO NOT look at the basket" a little difficult 🤔.  You will need to have some idea where it is in relation to your probe.  You'll just have to be more preemptive and gentle with your controls.

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2 minutes ago, rob10 said:

That might make the "DO NOT look at the basket" a little difficult 🤔.  You will need to have some idea where it is in relation to your probe.  You'll just have to be more preemptive and gentle with your controls.

 

Yeah right - I will get it though might just take me a little longer.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah I figure I am first going to keep trying without the autopilot and see how I get along.

I do have a slight disadvantage though, as I have no vision right of center. So I can't really see the basket unless I look right at it.

Might make it a little tougher on me learning but am determined to get it.

 

strange  that  you  cant  see  the  basket  at  right of  centre  since iam using  vr   and  have  no  issues  seeing  the  basket  all the  way  in (like  to see  a  screen  shot   just before  you hook  up  to the  basket)


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