Aerial Refueling

[fagulha]

Usually i set the tanker (KC-135 MPRS) at +25,000 ft and 300 kts and a race-track but sometimes circle tracks to practice. Try it and leave feedback.

[Flanky83]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:38 AM, HILOK said:

also, in case it hasn't been mentioned already, i'd highly recommend training AAR just 10min per day over a week, rather than only week-ends for hours and hours.

Couldn’t agree more.

This is exactly what I did, 20min aerial refueling every day. Not more.

First 2-3days, I didn’t manage at all. I then disabled the wake turbulence. The next day first contact and 5seconds refueling. At the end of the week I managed full refueling with 5 attempts.

I also failed at the beginning because I used the rudder to correct. Then I used only the stick and throttle. If you ask me(no pilote), don’t use the rudder!

 

[Theranthil]

Rudder is a bad habit for AAR. I totally agree on the "10 minutes a day". It's frustrating at the beginning, don't worry after a few session you'll get the hang of it.

A few tips :

• Wiggles your toes : It has been said before, just relax your arm and fly relax. Gripping the stick doesn't help
• Don't bother with the horizon. Your horizon is the tanker's wings. After some times you won't even care if he's turning or not. You just have to think relative to the tanker rather than relative to the earth.

I don't fly that much, but i'm trying to refuel at least once every time I fly. Like the case I.

[jaylw314]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:35 PM, Steel Jaw said:

I consistently see this advised, but having tried to master this so very many times, I dont see how I can plug when in proximity without watching the dang basket.

The advise is not to STARE at the basket.  You do still need to SEE the basket

Track the tanker with your eyes.   The basket will be in your peripheral vision, so you won't see any details (and in IRL would be out of focus).  Of course, you don't NEED to see details on the basket, just that it's in the right place.  One subtle benefit is that your peripheral vision is significantly more sensitive to motion than your foveal (center) vision, so you can perceive movement of the basket earlier than if you were staring at it.  In the meantime, you're tracking the tanker with your foveal vision, where you DO need to see details to monitor your relative position and distance, but it's motion in your FOV is much less relevant.

[rob10]

THIS:

6 hours ago, Theranthil said:

• Don't bother with the horizon. Your horizon is the tanker's wings. After some times you won't even care if he's turning or not. You just have to think relative to the tanker rather than relative to the earth.

If you're stabilized to the tankers wings you're good.  It's very easy to get used to doing this without even thinking about it since you have to do that when you're flying free hand (i.e. no on autopilot) already.

AND THIS:

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The advise is not to STARE at the basket.  You do still need to SEE the basket

Track the tanker with your eyes.   The basket will be in your peripheral vision, so you won't see any details (and in IRL would be out of focus).  Of course, you don't NEED to see details on the basket, just that it's in the right place.  One subtle benefit is that your peripheral vision is significantly more sensitive to motion than your foveal (center) vision, so you can perceive movement of the basket earlier than if you were staring at it.  In the meantime, you're tracking the tanker with your foveal vision, where you DO need to see details to monitor your relative position and distance, but it's motion in your FOV is much less relevant.

When you're only using your peripheral vision to see the basket you're less likely to make drastic changes trying to chase the basket.  You're more likely to softly move it which is what you need to do.  These two posts IMHO sum up AAR tips about as well as any I've seen.

[Swift.]

On 2/19/2022 at 10:19 PM, fagulha said:

Usually i set the tanker (KC-135 MPRS) at +25,000 ft and 300 kts and a race-track but sometimes circle tracks to practice. Try it and leave feedback.

FWIW, 300 KCAS is a little bit fast for a hornet tanker. The max airspeed for refuelling probe movement is only 300 KCAS after all. You might find something more like 270 KCAS a little nicer.

[fagulha]

1 hour ago, Swift. said:

FWIW, 300 KCAS is a little bit fast for a hornet tanker. The max airspeed for refuelling probe movement is only 300 KCAS after all. You might find something more like 270 KCAS a little nicer.

Thank you for your reply. From now on i will set the tanker (KC-135) around 270 kcas.

And about the Trick or treat (S-3b)? i usually set circle track 9000 ft and 250/270 kcas. What is the correct, or the most common, speed you advise?

Edited February 21, 2022 by fagulha

[Swift.]

40 minutes ago, fagulha said:

Thank you for your reply. From now on i will set the tanker (KC-135) around 270 kcas.

And about the Trick or treat (S-3b)? i usually set circle track 9000 ft and 250/270 kcas. What is the correct, or the most common, speed you advise?

 

Recovery ranking in DCS is a bit iffy as you should expect the tankers to be 'hawking' the low state aircraft, by flying about 1 mile ahead at the 1 o'clock position at about 1200 ft iirc. But in DCS we can't get the AI to do this. So instead you might look to having the tankers in their holding altitude of 6/7000fr, but again we can't get the tankers to follow the port holding in DCS. So really it's up to you how you want to run it until ED can develop an organic solution.

[Baco]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:11 PM, War_Pig said:

It’s very doable, and once you learn it’s easy and incredibly fun.  Learn to fly with just your fingertips, and make tiny corrections.  Once in close, If you can see you’re closing/overtaking the tanker, then it’s happening too fast.  
 

The essence of AAR is formation flying.  If you don’t have a solid grasp of formation flying, you won’t be able to AAR, and vise versa.  So it’s an essential skill for any fighter pilot, even in DCS.  The best thing I can recommend is to start practicing with the KC-130, it’s the easiest to learn on.  Once you have that, then transition to the KC-135 and then the S-3.   Good luck, and don’t give up but also don’t let yourself become frustrated.  It takes time and practice to get right, but once you do it’s like riding a bike.  The Hornet is the easiest to learn due to the FBW.  Don’t let the engines spool too far down when reducing power, and stand them right back up to your neutral position as soon as you see a change in trend. It’s all about small corrections.  Better controls help, but it can be done!

A fighter pilot that can’t AAR is like a driver that can only turn left.

Thanks mate! yeah formation flying isnt my forte either LOL... But yeah I have a nice Virpil, accurate enough, still the KC 135 flies all over the sky.. for moments I am perfectly align and still then bam, right, left, up, down.. I cant compensate fast and accurately enough... Well I Guess I´llI keep trying.. but man and "easy" option with the tanker STILL in one bearing one speed. instead of flying realistically would be very welcome... 

 

22 hours ago, Theranthil said:

I don't fly that much, but i'm trying to refuel at least once every time I fly. Like the case I.

That there is THE point, Not only do you have to learn to do it, but you have to stay proficient at it. that means you need to fly once or twice a week at least. and if you work and take care of a family some times you cant... so the Nay say´ers, purist, elitist, only keep people that could enjoy the sim as casual pilots away.

[fagulha]

7 hours ago, Swift. said:

Recovery ranking in DCS is a bit iffy as you should expect the tankers to be 'hawking' the low state aircraft, by flying about 1 mile ahead at the 1 o'clock position at about 1200 ft iirc. But in DCS we can't get the AI to do this. So instead you might look to having the tankers in their holding altitude of 6/7000fr, but again we can't get the tankers to follow the port holding in DCS. So really it's up to you how you want to run it until ED can develop an organic solution.

Thank you again for your insight/experience.

[War_Pig]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:33 PM, Baco said:

KC 135 flies all over the sky.. for moments I am perfectly align and still then bam, right, left, up, down.. I cant compensate fast and accurately enough...

What you’re describing is called Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO).  I’m not a .mil pilot, so maybe they have better ways to talk about this, but it sounds like you’re focusing on the tanker, then reacting with gross corrections, then reversing those with more gross corrections.  In the bad old days we called this hamfisting, and we’re all guilty of it at some point, especially in sims where we don’t realize we’re doing it because there’s no G feedback like IRL.

My advice is to step back mentally and focus on trends:  Are you closing or falling?  Is the rate of change the rate you want?  If not, make a small, correction in one axis and give the aircraft a moment to react, then reassess.  Trim until the aircraft is flying at the proper speed in formation with the tanker (not at the basket) hands off, before moving to the basket.  When you get there, the same trim/speed will yield the same state, hands off.  Use small corrections, and put them in, then take them out.  That applies in all axis: if you bank left to slide left, returning to wings level will not bring you back to the same heading as the tanker; you have to bank right until you are rematched.  Same with pitch and power: find the neutral sweet spot, make a small correction and immediately return to that spot once you see a change in trend.  Walk the throttles, and take it slow.

At first, when you’re struggling, visual cues will help, such as bringing the hose down the HUD ladder, or refuel pod on the gun cross, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t need those at all, because you’ll have developed neural pathways that allow your brain to automatigically take care of the geometry problems itself.

Good luck!  I want to see a post in a week or two saying how much you love AAR now and everyone should learn!

 

 

 

 

 

[War_Pig]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:33 PM, Baco said:

That there is THE point, Not only do you have to learn to do it, but you have to stay proficient at it. that means you need to fly once or twice a week at least. and if you work and take care of a family some times you cant...

I’m on the road working 20-25 days a month, get to fly DCS about 1-2 hours a week tops, and have young children at home that are priority.  
 

When I do fly, it’s not typically involving an AAR, more likely to be in the Viggen, Huey or a WWII bird.  I can jump into any of the birds I own, and plug the first try without noticeable rust, and I promise I am *not* Chuck Yeager.  

My point is that it really is like riding a bike once you ‘get’ it, and the skill translates to every other aspect of flying in DCS as well.  Flying with the fingertips is important in weapon deliver, carrier landings, everything.

[SharpeXB]

14 hours ago, War_Pig said:

My point is that it really is like riding a bike once you ‘get’ it, and the skill translates to every other aspect of flying in DCS as well.

And just like the “bike” once you get it, it sticks. I went several years between learning AAR in the A-10 and then not using it for years (not really needed in that plane) and then picked it up again in the Hornet after a few sessions. Pretty surprising but once you get it, you got it. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yes indeed. It's frustrating to learn but once you can do it reliably, you'll still be able to do it even after not flying the module for a while.
And for those who can make changes to their joysticks (such as swapping cams, changing springs or adding/removing tension) it's worth experimenting with those. I'm using the default springs and cams in my Virpil CM2 but I have the tension turned up to the maximum (for both pitch and roll), which is very comfortable to me and immensely improved my flying compared to the default tension.

Also, moving from Thrustmaster to Virpil has made an incredible difference, in a good way  

[Flanky83]

You need a Thrustmaster wathog or Virpil. Everything lower than that you don’t stand a chance.

What helped me:

-Talk with someone in the background or listen to a movie.

-Be trimmed at the required speed and altitude

-Once trimmed, I imagine it like a lunar module docking(watch Apollo 13 movie). You give some tiny impulse on the stick to change your airplane’s course. Really the minimum the joystick can(I have warthog with hornet add-on). Move it and let it back to neutral.

-A lot of people will contradict me, but I look at the basket most of the time.

-If you feel you will miss the basket, reduce a bit the throttle and give time to the GE engine, they are slow to react.

 

[norman99]

18 hours ago, Flanky83 said:

You need a Thrustmaster wathog or Virpil. Everything lower than that you don’t stand a chance.

 

This is absolutely not true. So many people believe that they can buy or upgrade their way to AAR proficiency. The only tried and true way to get good at AAR is practice, practice, and more practice.

I use a Saitek X55, with out any curves applied, simply placed on a desk either side of my 17” laptop, and I can AAR just fine. I’m definitely no ace when it comes to DCS, I simply focused solely on AAR for a couple weeks, doing nothing else.

[Shimmergloom667]

22 hours ago, Flanky83 said:

You need a Thrustmaster wathog or Virpil. Everything lower than that you don’t stand a chance.

 

I know people who refuel flying with keyboard. I used a crappy X56 and had no issues. Good hardware sure doesn't hurt, but it is NOT needed for AAR.

[Dragon1-1]

I use a second-hand, probably 10 years old CH set.  Admittedly, the spring seems modded to be stronger, but that doesn't make it a Thrustmaster. Still a great piece of gear. Won't say I never had any problems with AAR, but I can plug all AAR-capable aircraft that I have.

[Flanky83]

I tried with the T.flight hotas X for weeks. No chance.

I changed to warthog and it worked in 3days.

Throttle and stick are just easier on the warthog.

[Sacarino111]

Hi.

My gear is a Saitek X52 PRO. I can refuel almost 100% of the time with no big trouble. My tricks:

1 Keep the muscles relaxed; every 30 seconds or so I check the state of my muscles and relax them (breathing helps)

2 Keep the sight on the nacelle, not on the basket, specially when geting closer to /or in contact

3 Relax the muscles

4 The speed is where I sufer the most, as the throttle detent usually is in the position where the throttle must be for that speed, so maybe some speedbrake helps

5 When nervous, wiggle the toes!

6 Muscle relaxation again

7 The more dificult it is the less grip you have to apply; literally, grab the stick with the tip of the fingers, really, it is not a metaphore, use the more sensitive area of your skin (fingertips) to control the plane.

8 Did I mention to relax the muscles?

Hope I gave some help

Saludos.

Saca111

and, relaxyour muscles!

[Dragon1-1]

One thing missing from your checklist: trim hands-off with the tanker before attempting to plug. Single most important step in any aircraft except the Viper. It helps immensely.

Note that fingertip control only works with a stick that has no deadzone. For my CH stick, this is not the case, so I use a different technique: rapid, dynamic corrections. You have to think well ahead of the aircraft for that to work, and it can be a bit exhausting, but it works. Now, large corrections will easily lead to PIO, but in this case they're not large, just fast. This needs a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to stay "bounce" within the box by moving the stick faster than the aircraft can respond. I don't know if deadzone is an issue with T.flight.

Other than that, sight picture is critical. Try to drive into the basket straight in, and find good alignment cues. I don't have good ones for the Hornet yet, but in the Tomcat it's "30 on the hose" (the "30" in question is on the right side of the pitch ladder on the HUD).

[norman99]

37 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

One thing missing from your checklist: trim hands-off with the tanker before attempting to plug. Single most important step in any aircraft except the Viper. It helps immensely.

Just remember in the Hornet, you should only be trimming laterally, and only to counter the affects of an asymmetrical load. Pitch trim, and lateral trim on a balanced aircraft, are not required, and should not be used. (Obviously takeoff/landing not withstanding).

[War_Pig]

Very good point!  Only touch the pitch trim on the Hornet if the gear is down.  Otherwise, it trims for G, defaulting at 1G.  Don't mess with that or you will be flying a silly airplane until you get it back to 1G.  With the gear down, it trims for AoA in the landing phase, which is great.

Asymetric loads are very common in the Hornet however, and even the TGP alone can give you a significant rolling moment over time.  Trim laterally to correct for this as soon as you can after climbing to a safe altitude, so that when you are looking at the FLIR, your airplane is not slowly rolling into an unusual attitude for you to recover from when you look up.  

[Rex]

I use the speed/altitude envelopes from:

 

Source:  http://www.japcc.org/wp-content/uploads/JAPCC_AAR_Flight_Plan_web.pdf

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Rex

[dburne]

I guess I need to get back into learning this. It would be nice if DCS offered an easy option for it though.