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Aerial Refueling


Irishlad200000

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I’ve recently got my head around AAR, it’s far from perfect but I can now get “transfer complete” with only falling out the basket once. I can cope with a turning tanker and wake turbulence which is something I thought I’d never manage.

Honestly it’s changed my life! (Slight exaggeration there.) To be able to now do something, which initially seemed almost impossible, through practice and determination feels great and I’ve applied the same mindset to other aspects of my life.

To anyone who is struggling, keep at it. You CAN do it, it just takes a fair bit of practice.

And to put things in perspective I was just watching an episode of Air Warriors, was saying about an F16 pilot who had a fuel leak and had to stay connected to the tanker for over 30 minutes whilst both planes flew back to base. 

I would have been so screwed haha

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There is a new technology which some aircraft are testing that AUTO INFLIGHT REFUEL from the BASKET. If they were to model it in DCS then it would require a new Helmet Mounted Display. It also features an AUTO LAND SYSTEM which always catches the Number 3 Wire from a moving ship. They have been testing it for over a year.  

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And nothing of that would be part of a ~2005 Hornet, which is modeled in DCS. Oh wait, it's you, so it would be a fruitless discussion anyway.

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23 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

And nothing of that would be part of a ~2005 Hornet, which is modeled in DCS. Oh wait, it's you, so it would be a fruitless discussion anyway.

There is very little difference between the two aircraft. That technology is going to be available for all of them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

  I have had the Hornet since early access and I have seriously working this year on Air refueling.     I now have two of the tanker done KC-135 MLS  and S-3.   I started with KC-135MLS because I heard was the hardest to do.    So onward.

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There are 2 categories of fighter pilots: those who have performed, and those who someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy. Robert Shaw

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The fact that the surrounding basket has no collision value  annoys the hell out of me! It is difficult enough - why make it harder than in RL  by not having a WORKING BASKET! Ruins AAR for me every time!


Edited by funkster
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to  those  that having  issues  with aar  with  the  hornet  which is  quite  easy once  you know  what  your  doing,  should  try  doing  it  with  the  f16.   Using  vr  which  makes  it  even  easier


Edited by pete_auau
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11 hours ago, pete_auau said:

to  those  that having  issues  with aar  with  the  hornet  which is  quite  easy once  you know  what  your  doing,  should  try  doing  it  with  the  f16.   Using  vr  which  makes  it  even  easier

 

On that I would disagree:  other than formation flying and sstation keeping with the tanker, no other skills translate:  in the Viper the probe flies to you.

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15 minutes ago, Steel Jaw said:

On that I would disagree:  other than formation flying and sstation keeping with the tanker, no other skills translate:  in the Viper the probe flies to you.

yea   thats  even harder  than  in the  hornet  least   you got  more  slack  using  the  basket,  least  in the  hornet  it  tells  you  your  disconnected


Edited by pete_auau
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Having been recently spending most of if not all of my limited DCS time trying to nail AAR in the Hornet & Viper I can say I don’t think either is much harder than the other and they are both very much “doable” even if at first it feels impossible. 

I think, and I’m no expert, that the key is focusing on the tanker and completely ignoring your HUD, except maybe your speed read out. That and practice practice practice. It’s a hell of a lot for your brain to take in and the practice (x3) helps you subconsciously break down what is really an information overload at first attempt.

Each of the two have their good and bad points when it comes to AAR imho. I find it easier to connect in the Hornet, but then again you need to stay connected for a fair amount of time longer than the Viper. The Viper on the other hand can feel like there is a third party involved, I’ve got all greens on the indicators, why hasn’t the bloody boom operator connected! But again the whole process is over a lot quicker when you do connect. But if you don’t have your Bingo readout on the HUD it’s very hard to tell if you’ve disconnected.

Having now managed it with both I’d say the Hornet is a wee bit easier, and you feel more like it’s your own silly fault when you are having a tough time.  But there really isn’t much difference between the two, but I haven’t tried the Viper at night yet or with critical fuel, and at the moment it defiantly takes me longer to get connected in the Viper.

TLDR: Hornet: Easier to connect, harder to stay connected for full refuel. Viper: The opposite.

= pretty much the same level of challenge, with maybe the Hornet being slightly easier. But that’s just me.

I think collision with the basket is there in a rough kinda way, I’ve seen myself connect when I thought there really was no chance, in fact I think it’d a little too forgiving.

Edit: Good God why are my posts so bloody long, I must get out the house more.


Edited by Digitalvole
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To extend Digital's speech ... 🙂

A couple of other things also drastically can help.

Formation flying in general is a good place to start; even if it's for 60 seconds here and there, and it doesn't have to be fingertips, but able to keep with someone, is good practice in throttle control, and that's... 98% of what AAR is; throttle control.

Second thing that a lot of people struggle with is hardware; having a curve can help a LOT of people, and I'm not saying you need to put 30%+ curve in anything, and keep it there, just put some in, see if it helps you hold formation better, and then over time back it down unless it becomes otherwise comfortable.

We did AAR training this past weekend, and watching people do it their first times, they get tunnel vision on something, and start putting all the stick effort in the world to hit their mark. Less stick. But for many, they might not make that connection yet.

 

This is  more of a side thing, but I see tons and tons of people talk about "reference this or reference where the hose is on the hornets canopy" etc. etc.....

IMO, it's poor advice.

Coming from racing, the fastest drivers are always looking an entire turn ahead, they've already planned their route, and onto the next. Looking at where the hose is on the canopy of the Hornet's brow is like looking at the car right in front of you on track. It's dangerous, causes you to have delayed inputs, and gives you poor picture of the whole scene.

 

So for those giving advice; stop telling people to see where things line up in their canopy. It's poor form.

(also, if you say the word autopilot, and they say "oh yeah, I'm on altitude hold" or anything like that... reach through the screen and slap them)


Edited by XCNuse
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13 hours ago, XCNuse said:

To extend Digital's speech ... 🙂

The last thing my posts need is extending! Hehe 😉 

Good points mind you, though I do roughly line up the pod on the wing of the tanker with the top right corner of my hud when attempting to connect, but after that I only have eyes for the tanker and try not to over control the aircraft.

Oh, and having had another go last night with both I did actually find the Hornet a fair bit easier. But then again I have practiced a lot more in the Hornet than the Viper and I had a few pints of beer in me (incase anyone is wondering, no beer definitely doesn’t help). I really want to like flying the Viper more than I do.

Ok I’m going to stop there and try not to waffle on. 🙂

Just a little bit more waffle, I tried it in the Tomcat and oh boy that is tough.


Edited by Digitalvole
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  • 4 weeks later...

Like Digitalvole I have recently succeded with air-refueling for the first time. Everything has been said, but in all honesty I was considering this task impossible for me.

I believe my issue was being too nervous and I overcompensate with unvolontary strong stick inputs when closing to the basket.

The trick that worked for me to avoid those large uncontroled stick movements was to make tons of micro stick back and forth inputs.

In order to dampen my inputs I'm shaking the stick with small movements around the desired position. Quit unorthodox but efficient in my case, it looks like I have tremors or shakiness. So far it makes sense since you are supposed to "walk the throttle" all the time and pushing it back and forth for a good precision on a carrier landing. Same goes for stick input ! After a while, and some more practice,  it seems I can almost fly normaly to the basket without so much trembling. 

 


Edited by pixie
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On 5/16/2022 at 9:35 AM, pixie said:

 

I believe my issue was being too nervous and I overcompensate with unvolontary strong stick inputs when closing to the basket.

The trick that worked for me to avoid those large uncontroled stick movements was to make tons of micro stick back and forth inputs.

 

That’s exactly what I did and exactly what I now do. 😁

I’ve set AAR as my new bench mark for putting the hours in to learn the aircraft. I’m finding the Tomcat soo much harder. Past a certain point I can’t see anything but the basket and the fuel line in the Tomcat! I think, despite wanting to fly countless other aircraft, I’m going to be a Hornet pilot forever more. The rest (non FBW) are just too hard for me.

I must remember I said the same thing about AAR in the Hornet this time last year.

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  • 1 month later...

I had a rough time learning to refuel the F18. What helped me I put in some  stupid high curves on the joystick to tame down my corrections. Later on once I got a better feel for it I backed them off.  Plus it took me a while to work with the stick and throttle together as one.  I had a bad habit of focusing on the stick and not the throttle and vice versa.  Another thing that help me stay connected is once I plug the basket I drive way forward toward the pod, gives me a little more wiggle room fore and aft.   I've got a VR headset last month and the better sense of depth helps I've started practicing night IFR now, and the other day refueled in the A4 Skyhawk wasn't pretty had a few disconnects but i got topped off 

j


Edited by Tomcat388th

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On 6/30/2022 at 1:26 AM, Tomcat388th said:

I've got a VR headset last month and the better sense of depth helps I've started practicing night IFR now, and the other day refueled in the A4 Skyhawk wasn't pretty had a few disconnects but i got

so much easier  in  vr  isnt  it  🙂

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12 hours ago, pete_auau said:

so much easier  in  vr  isnt  it  🙂

Yes so much easier. The  sense of depth makes a huge difference.  

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On 2/4/2021 at 10:22 AM, flaashheart said:

I found that the absolute key thing with F18 AAR is to forget the basket altogether, just block it out from your active vision.  Form up on the wing tip light, slightly low and around 2 hose lengths back and concentrate fully on the fuel hose pod.

This! Don’t stare at the basket, try to just fly in formation with the tanker. Also: relax, tense muscles are slow and unprecise. Try to hum a melody, that helps for me. It is not easy, but we do not fly DCS because it is easy, we do it because it is hard. 🙂

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It's also useful to find yourself some visual alignment cues: one on the tanker's body, the other inside the cockpit. A static element of the HUD, like a gunsight, or something on the canopy bow works well. 

4 minutes ago, grimnir said:

Try to hum a melody, that helps for me. 

I've got one that's just perfect for the occasion: 🙂 

 

 

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