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F-16 vs Mig-15


RodBorza

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This toying against the AI Mig-15 somehow 😁 sparked my interest in Mig-15 and its module, so it is now freshly in my hangar. And the first thing I wanted to try was to put the whole task on its head:

 

 

Is really Mig-15 AI grossly overperforming compared to the player's FM? I was really surprised about how the Mig can keep up with modern fighters in this particular scenario.. 🙂.

 

O.

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On 4/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Xavven said:

 

Well, I could be wrong, but I think corner speed is max instantaneous turn rate (energy depleting), not sustained.  https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1289.pdf Page 35 (4-4)

 

 

 

You find corner speed on an EM chart by looking for the highest point. The Ps will be negative and measured in feet per second, indicating that altitude loss would be required to keep turning at that rate, G, and airspeed (energy depleting). You find best sustained turn rate by looking for the highest point on the Ps=0 curve. It is usually at higher airspeed and lower G than corner speed.

 

As for when you should be flying which speeds, how much G to pull, and how much altitude to exchange, that depends on the geometry of the fight, your opponent's energy state, and a bunch of other factors. @Jester2138I think the point of Youda holding a sustained high speed level turn was to demonstrate what the MiG-15 would do so we could analyze its energy, not actually try to beat it.

 

@TobiasAIncidentally, I found another F-16 EM Diagram. Take a look at how vastly different it is (and with an older engine no less) than the one you had posted.

 

file.php?id=6707&sid=2dd2bef71534c9af13f

 

22.5 deg./sec. sustained at Ps=0 and a 26.2 deg/sec ITR! What's going on there? So I looked into it a little more. The weights and drag indexes are different on this chart, and it's probably an earlier F-16C block that was lighter than the block 50 or 52. That led me to this (located at https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14939 )

 

file.php?id=13899&sid=445e0254ebefaa7004

Honestly, this is the first time I've seen this, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The above table seems to imply that the F-16C itself has a drag index of 0, and that adding external stores increases the index, maybe just for purposes of calculating the EM diagrams. Comparing the chart you had initially posted, which is 6000 lbs heavier and with a drag index of 50, it implies that that F-16 still had 2 drop tanks on plus something else, like a couple of GBU-12's. Dunno, maybe I'm doing this completely wrong. 

 

The chart I found on the other hand at 20,000 lbs would imply that F-16 is nearly out of fuel (like 1000 lbs remaining or thereabouts?) and has no external stores. So if I haven't completely misinterpreted everything, my conclusion is that performance at sea level would be somewhere in the middle at the start of the fight if you actually remember to drop your tanks. Sustained turn rate would be better than 18.5 deg/sec but worse than 22.5 deg./sec. Here's the heavier chart again for convenience:

 

file.php?id=26968&mode=view

 

That’s a block 30. Also block 30 is about 17-18000lbs empty block 50 19-20000. The gross weight is 20000 for the 30 graph and 26000 for the 50, the 50 is carrying around three tons while the 30 only one.

On 4/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Xavven said:

 

Well, I could be wrong, but I think corner speed is max instantaneous turn rate (energy depleting), not sustained.  https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1289.pdf Page 35 (4-4)

 

 

 

You find corner speed on an EM chart by looking for the highest point. The Ps will be negative and measured in feet per second, indicating that altitude loss would be required to keep turning at that rate, G, and airspeed (energy depleting). You find best sustained turn rate by looking for the highest point on the Ps=0 curve. It is usually at higher airspeed and lower G than corner speed.

 

As for when you should be flying which speeds, how much G to pull, and how much altitude to exchange, that depends on the geometry of the fight, your opponent's energy state, and a bunch of other factors. @Jester2138I think the point of Youda holding a sustained high speed level turn was to demonstrate what the MiG-15 would do so we could analyze its energy, not actually try to beat it.

 

@TobiasAIncidentally, I found another F-16 EM Diagram. Take a look at how vastly different it is (and with an older engine no less) than the one you had posted.

 

file.php?id=6707&sid=2dd2bef71534c9af13f

 

22.5 deg./sec. sustained at Ps=0 and a 26.2 deg/sec ITR! What's going on there? So I looked into it a little more. The weights and drag indexes are different on this chart, and it's probably an earlier F-16C block that was lighter than the block 50 or 52. That led me to this (located at https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14939 )

 

file.php?id=13899&sid=445e0254ebefaa7004

Honestly, this is the first time I've seen this, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The above table seems to imply that the F-16C itself has a drag index of 0, and that adding external stores increases the index, maybe just for purposes of calculating the EM diagrams. Comparing the chart you had initially posted, which is 6000 lbs heavier and with a drag index of 50, it implies that that F-16 still had 2 drop tanks on plus something else, like a couple of GBU-12's. Dunno, maybe I'm doing this completely wrong. 

 

The chart I found on the other hand at 20,000 lbs would imply that F-16 is nearly out of fuel (like 1000 lbs remaining or thereabouts?) and has no external stores. So if I haven't completely misinterpreted everything, my conclusion is that performance at sea level would be somewhere in the middle at the start of the fight if you actually remember to drop your tanks. Sustained turn rate would be better than 18.5 deg/sec but worse than 22.5 deg./sec. Here's the heavier chart again for convenience:

 

file.php?id=26968&mode=view

 

That’s a block 30. Also block 30 is about 17-18000lbs empty block 50 19-20000. The gross weight is 20000 for the 30 graph and 26000 for the 50, the 50 is carrying around three tons while the 30 only one.

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Lots of people here complaining about AI MiG-15, but I think the MiG-15 is simply a great dogfighter.

As long as you manage to keep your speed up, which is not that easy, you can win a guns-only dogfight against any opponent. Once you lose energy, you are finished.

The 2 × 23 mm and 1 × 37 mm cannons are brutal. One hit of the 37mm is enough for an enemy fighter. Problem is slow projectiles and small amount of rounds. But if you become compentent with gunnery in this thing, it's a beast.

However, the reason why the F-16 is a better fighter is that the likelyhood of getting in a guns-only dogfight nowadays is pretty small. And the MiG-15 has zero answers against missiles.

Lots of people here complaining about AI MiG-15, but I think the MiG-15 is simply a great dogfighter.

As long as you manage to keep your speed up, which is not that easy, you can win a guns-only dogfight against any opponent. Once you lose energy, you are finished.

The 2 × 23 mm and 1 × 37 mm cannons are brutal. One hit of the 37mm is enough for an enemy fighter. Problem is slow projectiles and small amount of rounds. But if you become compentent with gunnery in this thing, it's a beast.

However, the reason why the F-16 is a better fighter is that the likelyhood of getting in a guns-only dogfight nowadays is pretty small. And the MiG-15 has zero answers against missiles.

Modules: Bf 109, C-101, CE-II, F-5, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Albatros, Viggen, Mirage 2000, Hornet, Yak-52, FC3

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Actually, the MiG-15 should be soundly trashed in vertical against any modern fighter. It has poor TWR and no afterburner, so in any vertical situation, it'll stall out and lose. All it can do is turn, admittedly really well, but it's slow and doesn't recover energy very well. In addition, I'm not sure if all its aerodynamic quirks are modeled. IRL, the MiG-17 (basically a MiG-15 with an afterburner, a radar gunsight and better aerodynamics, so better in every way) was effective, but it was no match for the F-4 using proper tactics, which doesn't turn well at all, but can climb and is quite fast. Well, the Viper is just as good at climbing, and it can also turn.

It can win against modern fighters, sure, but that depends on them flying like idiots, staying horizontal and getting pulled into one circle flow. That's the way the MiG-17 handed the US Thuds and Phantoms their asses in 'Nam, and in the same way, the P-51D can probably beat a Viper, too. The moment you try something more sophisticated than the Luffberry circle, the jets start winning. It's true that you can't get complacent just because it's a MiG-15, particularly in guns combat, but it's at the same time, this is no excuse for losing the fight.

Funnily enough, DCS AI seems to love the vertical. If you learn to use it, they'll all basically play your game. I've managed to soundly trash an AI MiG-15 in a MiG-19 that way. Get fast, go full burner, and go up. See how long he can keep up. When he can't, pull into it and get on its tail. 

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