imacken Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Not sure if tis has been asked before, but why do I not see full travel of the stick in the forward direction? If I look at the Controls Indicator, the forward bar is very short compared to the back bar, and the stick is fully forward at 50% travel. In Axis Tune, the full travel shows from 0 to 100%. This only occurs in the Hornet, no other module I have noticed. Any ideas why this is? Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRobertsen Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Its uncomfortable for the pilot Negative G's arent as funny as positive G's Im guessing 1 First become an aviator, then become a terminator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imacken Posted February 23, 2021 Author Share Posted February 23, 2021 Not sure if that's the reason. Why would it be different in the Hornet compared to any other module? Also, why allow the physical stick to travel further than the game permits, bearing in mind the Axis Tune calibration allows full movement? By all means restrict the forward movement, but surely it should be calibrated with the stick travel. Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRobertsen Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, imacken said: Not sure if that's the reason. Why would it be different in the Hornet compared to any other module? Also, why allow the physical stick to travel further than the game permits, bearing in mind the Axis Tune calibration allows full movement? By all means restrict the forward movement, but surely it should be calibrated with the stick travel. Well, if the Hornet's stick actually has less movement forward, because pilots simply dont need negative 9 g's If ED then gave the joystick the full movement for the short forward, it would be less responsive; so to give it a more realistic feel they simply stopped the input at a certain point. Easy way to retain a 1:1 between forward and aft. Again, Im just guessing As for the other modules, I dont know, could be that they simply are different Edited February 23, 2021 by TimRobertsen First become an aviator, then become a terminator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imacken Posted February 23, 2021 Author Share Posted February 23, 2021 Yep, what you say makes sense, but it doesn't explain why the Hornet and not other aircraft. What is so unusual about the Hornet in this respect? Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengou Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, imacken said: Yep, what you say makes sense, but it doesn't explain why the Hornet and not other aircraft. What is so unusual about the Hornet in this respect? Every airplane is different. The Hornet has unique fly by wire control laws. This must be how ED decided to model things to best represent the aircraft in their eyes. Virpil WarBRD | Thrustmaster Hornet Grip | Foxx Mount | Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle | Logitech G Throttle Quadrant | VKB T-Rudder IV | TrackIR 5 AMD Ryzen 5 3600 | Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB | 32GB DDR4 3200 | SSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svend_Dellepude Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 If you trim for landing i think it uses more forward stick motion. Not sure though. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerUK9 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Svend_Dellepude said: If you trim for landing i think it uses more forward stick motion. Not sure though. It shouldn't, especially given only electronic trim has been implemented at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegisFX Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Pretty sure another jet like the 15C has a smaller forward range as well. With center mounted sticks, I assume it’s pilot comfort for not having to lean forward Owned: Ryzen 3900x, MSI AMD 470x mobo, 32gb 3200MHz ram, Gtx 1660 Ti, 970 Evo Plus 500GB, MsFFB2, TIR5, TMWH+18c Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Buttkicker/SSA, WinWing F-18C . Next is VR for simpit Art Of The Kill: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HILOK Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 well, technically you have control over more Gs when pulling than when pushing to the limit. so it could just be that the stick range reflects that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge55 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 IIRC the Mirage has a shorter forward throw as well. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] i7 10700K OC 5.1GHZ / 500GB SSD & 1TB M:2 & 4TB HDD / MSI Gaming MB / GTX 1080 / 32GB RAM / Win 10 / TrackIR 4 Pro / CH Pedals / TM Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imacken Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Sarge55 said: IIRC the Mirage has a shorter forward throw as well. No, the Mirage is 'normal' full travel. It's only the Hornet and F-15C AFAICS. All the logic given above is sound, but I would still love to know why these 2 aircraft are any different from all the others. Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRobertsen Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 1 hour ago, imacken said: No, the Mirage is 'normal' full travel. It's only the Hornet and F-15C AFAICS. All the logic given above is sound, but I would still love to know why these 2 aircraft are any different from all the others. Wagner probably knows the answer to this; after all, he is the omniscient one First become an aviator, then become a terminator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 12 hours ago, imacken said: No, the Mirage is 'normal' full travel. It's only the Hornet and F-15C AFAICS. All the logic given above is sound, but I would still love to know why these 2 aircraft are any different from all the others. In real life, the Mirage 2000 stick travel forwards about 1/3 of backward movement: the allowed flight envelope is -3.2G/ +9.0G So the stick displacement per G unit is equal in (the stick moves the same distance for +3G and -3G). But in DCS M-2000C, you need full forward stick, when you try to perform inverted flight for instance, it feels weird, you need to move 3 time more to get the same pitch correction. I think ED did the right thing with DCS Hornet. Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampentium2 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 2/24/2021 at 5:00 PM, imacken said: No, the Mirage is 'normal' full travel. It's only the Hornet and F-15C AFAICS. All the logic given above is sound, but I would still love to know why these 2 aircraft are any different from all the others. Based on my learning when trying to troubleshoot and setup force feedback settings on different aircraft in DCS I find that each aircraft control input are modeled differently, at least based on few aircraft that I have tested. I think I can try to explain this. With ForceFeedback Eagles and Hornet are modeled with 0 stick input equals to neutral stick, however Flanker-D and A10-C Tank Killer does not, neutral stick position on aircraft is fedback to actual stick position so you have 1:1 stick control with ForceFeedback stick. Any attemp to center the stick (e.g by implementing centering spring) will cause the input translated as stick being pulled. But, without ForceFeedback I can imagine this becomes a small trouble as there's no way you can do 1:1 stick input so it comes down to how each developer modeled their aircraft. Obviously they will have to do 0 input as neutral stick. As forward movement is usually limited on actual aircraft they will have to decide whether to follow 0-100% forward range at the cost of being less responsive or 0-30% forward range and ignore the rest while having more realistic response. And it just so happens ED decides to model the later for the Hornet (having said that, I have never noticed this behavior before; not because it never happened but I have never paid attention to this. I only assumed they do 0-100%). Take it with a grain of salt, the only party who actually knows the actual reason is the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imacken Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 All true. However, I usually fly the Hornet with the stick hidden, so I did wonder quite often why nothing much was happening with forward movement. It wasn't until I switched on ctrl-enter (for some reason) that I noticed the restriction in forward movement. That explained a few things to me! Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampentium2 Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 21 hours ago, imacken said: All true. However, I usually fly the Hornet with the stick hidden, so I did wonder quite often why nothing much was happening with forward movement. It wasn't until I switched on ctrl-enter (for some reason) that I noticed the restriction in forward movement. That explained a few things to me! That's the funny thing... I've always use the ctrl-enter overlay but I've never noticed it... Though I mostly use it to see if I'm in AB or not, didn't pay much attention to the stick position.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imacken Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 You need a throttle with detents. I can highly recommend the Virpil CM3! 1 Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampentium2 Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, imacken said: You need a throttle with detents. I can highly recommend the Virpil CM3! I do, but budget does not allow at the moment... So, I make do with toggle detent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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