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Autopilot and FFB issue


hazzer

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Due to the way the ffb works it is not possible to engage the autopilot mode and have it not disengage in flight. 

 

This is because the autopilot moves the trim, which moves the stick as it does irl. But in game this is interpreted as me moving the controls and that disconnects the ap. 

 

A possible solution would be to ignore control inputs whilst the ap is on unless disengaged or cws is press (if the F14 has such a feature). This setting could be automatically applied if ffb is detected. 

 

Thanks. 

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RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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  • 1 month later...

Hello, please can someone look into this? It isn't possible to use the autopilot in the current state. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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  • 5 months later...

Hi there, 

 

Just want to say I have tried to fly the F14 again today and this issue is still present. Cannot use the autopilot as the trim and physical controls are not aligned. Really hoped this would've been fixed by now. 

The other bug which is somehow more annoying, when you have been in another aircraft and join the F14 you have the ffb profile from the other aircraft, ie I was in the p51 so the controls are limp on the ground but stiffen as airspeed increases. This means everytime I attempt to go in the F14 and then switch I need to reset the sim only to find the ap will not function. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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Hello , 

Same issue here with my  force feedback , very annoying as it is impossible to engage AP as trimming moves the physical center position of the FFBstick and AP can be engage only near the center  .

Of course you can use SIMFFB BUT you loose all the great effects at ihgh AOA etc ...

Good to know is that the A4 skyhawk free mod had the same problem wich has been fixed since the last update( Beta 5.1), now when you trim up or down the physical position of the FFBstick does not move SO you can engage AP ( as it needs to be centered for it ).

 

If the devs did it for the skyhawk it should be doable ?

 

best regards !

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On 10/17/2021 at 9:13 PM, jpdesvals said:

Hello , 

Same issue here with my  force feedback , very annoying as it is impossible to engage AP as trimming moves the physical center position of the FFBstick and AP can be engage only near the center  .

Of course you can use SIMFFB BUT you loose all the great effects at ihgh AOA etc ...

Good to know is that the A4 skyhawk free mod had the same problem wich has been fixed since the last update( Beta 5.1), now when you trim up or down the physical position of the FFBstick does not move SO you can engage AP ( as it needs to be centered for it ).

 

If the devs did it for the skyhawk it should be doable ?

 

best regards !

Hi there, 

 

Thanks for letting me know about the a4. It's very frustrating that the F14 has had this issue since it was made. They went through the effort of making some ffb effects to only not be able to use them. 

I thought it might have been becuase I previously had some curves set. I am now using a stick extention so no need for the curves, but the issue still exists. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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On 10/17/2021 at 2:13 PM, jpdesvals said:

Same issue here with my  force feedback , very annoying as it is impossible to engage AP as trimming moves the physical center position of the FFBstick and AP can be engage only near the center  .

If using the FFB implementation option for the F-14, the AP will not engage unless you meet the criteria to engage the AP which includes having your FFB stick at the trimmed position (hands off). With the FFB option unchecked the assumption is you're using a spring stick, which is in the "trimmed" or hands-off position when perfectly centered. This is obviously not the case in real life as control positions change with trim, at least in reversible control systems or ones with artificial feel systems like the F-14. With an FFB stick, the hands-off position of the stick should be changing with trim position just like the real aircraft. If you're applying a force to the stick resulting in the stick being away from the trimmed position, the AP will not engage because the AP knows stick is not at the trim position. This is mostly what activating the special FFB option does.

Another thing you'll notice is increasing stick force if you physically hold the FFB stick in position while running the manual trim. The stab will stay in position but stick force and trim point are changing because the trim actuators are moving, causing the artificial feel system (bungies) to apply force in an attempt to push the stick back to the trim/neutral point. Once you release the stick, the stab and the stick will shift to the new trim point wherever the trim actuators stopped.

If you're using the FFB option and meet all AP engage criteria and AP still won't engage then maybe we have a bug. At the time of FFB model development this all worked without issue and I'm not aware of anything which could have changed it.


Edited by fat creason
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Systems Engineer & FM Modeler

Heatblur Simulations

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Hello , 

thank you for responding. 

Lets keep it simple , i fully understand your explanation. 

With my sidewinder ff2

the test configuration is

- wing sweep auto 

- +or- 200ft/min 

-speed 350 kts / 10 000ft 

without engaging autopilot , to trim correctly the aircraft in level flight in this exemple the flying stick( sim )  AND my FF2 are trimmed pitch down out of the centered position and naturaly the autopilot wont engaged .. 

As mentioned before on the A4 before the last update: same problem . AFTER the last update in the a4 the flying stick( in the sim)  moves BUT my FF2 physically moves but way less than before when i trim the aircraft so it is not far awayfrom the center position and i am able to engage autopilot. 

 

Is it possible to tell the sim to move less the FF2 stick physically for the tomcat while the flying stick ( in the sim ) continues to move normally? 

 

I have no knowledge in coding so that is all i can tell . 

Best regards 

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On 10/17/2021 at 10:13 PM, jpdesvals said:

Hello , 

Same issue here with my  force feedback , very annoying as it is impossible to engage AP as trimming moves the physical center position of the FFBstick and AP can be engage only near the center  .

Of course you can use SIMFFB BUT you loose all the great effects at ihgh AOA etc ...

Good to know is that the A4 skyhawk free mod had the same problem wich has been fixed since the last update( Beta 5.1), now when you trim up or down the physical position of the FFBstick does not move SO you can engage AP ( as it needs to be centered for it ).

 

If the devs did it for the skyhawk it should be doable ?

 

best regards !

Isn't it supposed to be moving in real life? 

EDIT: Never mind. Haven't flown the A-4 for a while, and currently flying the Cat without FFB at the moment as I got myself a long extension for my Warthog. Will eventually get back to FFB after I've modded my FFB2. 😊 


Edited by MAXsenna
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On 10/25/2021 at 6:53 PM, fat creason said:

If using the FFB implementation option for the F-14, the AP will not engage unless you meet the criteria to engage the AP which includes having your FFB stick at the trimmed position (hands off). With the FFB option unchecked the assumption is you're using a spring stick, which is in the "trimmed" or hands-off position when perfectly centered. This is obviously not the case in real life as control positions change with trim, at least in reversible control systems or ones with artificial feel systems like the F-14. With an FFB stick, the hands-off position of the stick should be changing with trim position just like the real aircraft. If you're applying a force to the stick resulting in the stick being away from the trimmed position, the AP will not engage because the AP knows stick is not at the trim position. This is mostly what activating the special FFB option does.

Another thing you'll notice is increasing stick force if you physically hold the FFB stick in position while running the manual trim. The stab will stay in position but stick force and trim point are changing because the trim actuators are moving, causing the artificial feel system (bungies) to apply force in an attempt to push the stick back to the trim/neutral point. Once you release the stick, the stab and the stick will shift to the new trim point wherever the trim actuators stopped.

If you're using the FFB option and meet all AP engage criteria and AP still won't engage then maybe we have a bug. At the time of FFB model development this all worked without issue and I'm not aware of anything which could have changed it.

 

Hi there, 

Thanks for replying. I am meeting all the criteria, stick trimmed not applying any force. Ap ref button pressed and nothing. I have no curves or anything else set to be a contributing factor. 

My initial thought is that when I bring up the control input window (rctrl enter) I can see the trimming diamond, in all other aircraft it is aligned with the stick in its trimmed position and will move as you trim. In the F14 it is never aligned with the stick, I belive this is where it thinks the stick should be for the ap engage. However it will not as they won't align. In the past I had been able to get the autopilot to engage for a very short period however it always disconnected. 

I would appreciate you looking into the issue as currently it isn't possible to use the autopilot. I appreciate that I probably have explained this in the best way. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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Here is a screenshot of what I am talking about.

You can see, on the ground the trim is neutral. the stick is in its neutral position as well (which is further forward as it should be). However this means the AP will not engage unless both the little diamond and big diamond (trim and control position are aligned). Which isn't possible.

Screen_211017_184544.png

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RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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A image speaks more clearly than  many explanations.

That is the problem.

Thank you for checking on your force feedback stick .

I know that we are not a lot of this devices user but who knows if new force feedback bases will come on the market in the future 😉? We can dream .

It s a subject well discussed on the forum , for me force feedback is a must ! Ihave mine as many other guys for 20 years ! 

Best regards 

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12 hours ago, fat creason said:

I'll take a look next time I get out my FFB stick and see if anything isn't working correctly...

This hasn't worked correctly for as far as I can remember to be honest.

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well I have had the F14 since new and I have posted about multiple FFB issues since that very point. I hope they get looked into. The A/P and the bug in which the FFB messes up if I join the f14 after flying another aircraft or fly the f14 then another without restarting the whole sim is very frustrating. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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