F-16C steering on the runway

[Strider1_Trigger]

I noticed that the F-16C has a tendency to flip over if you’re not careful when taxiing and I have trouble to keep it on the runway after landing even when the nose wheel steering is off (guiding it to the runway isn’t very hard tho). I’m wondering how I should steer it to keep it on the runway. Should I use the left and right wheel brakes to steer it instead of the rudder? Also, when is the best time to idle the throttle and flare?

[razo+r]

At high speeds, rudder should be enough. If you still come off centerline, ease on the brakes.

 

At lower speeds, wheel brakes could do the trick.

Edited February 24, 2021 by razo+r

[ak12546]

Yes, the viper is squirrelly on landing, takeoff, and taxi there is still some flight modeling work to be done, so it might be a bit easier to control in the future. The narrow space between the main gear is the cause for it having a tendency to roll. In my experience, you can leave the speed brakes fully extended during your final approach, and flare just before you hit the runway and idle the throttle, be sure to keep the velocity vector in the [ and at the 3 degree pitch down line during final. Once you touch down, don’t let the nose gear touch the runway for as long as possible don’t apply any break, once it touches apply some light breaking. When your ground speed gets low enough you can start to apply more brake.

Edited February 25, 2021 by ak12546
Clarification

[=52d= Skip]

9 hours ago, the_big_iron said:

I noticed that the F-16C has a tendency to flip over if you’re not careful when taxiing and I have trouble to keep it on the runway after landing even when the nose wheel steering is off (guiding it to the runway isn’t very hard tho). I’m wondering how I should steer it to keep it on the runway. Should I use the left and right wheel brakes to steer it instead of the rudder? Also, when is the best time to idle the throttle and flare?

 

Flipping over you say?

 

Yep, that´s what they do

 

Until Rudder Authority gets some love I keep Nosewheel Steering engaged longer than I normally would, and do engage it earlier than I normally would. At slower speeds I use Left/ Right Wheelbrakes for fine control.

[Dee-Jay]

14 hours ago, the_big_iron said:

I noticed that the F-16C has a tendency to flip over if you’re not careful when taxiing and I have trouble to keep it on the runway after landing even when the nose wheel steering is off

 

Don't use NWS above 50Kts ... even with cautious.

For turns, limit your speed at about 5-10Kts (no need to check your INS to get a speed, do it simply visually, about the speed of a man walking or driving bicycle).

 

[ruddy122]

Just for gamism

I like the Viper be careful with NWS above 20 kts taxiing if you keep the inputs too long you’ll flip

Also use gentle taps if you have NWS engaged during take off roll or landing same thing too much rudder input won’t end well

Flight model needs some work but it’s good for new pilots that your not done flying until the plane comes to a complete Stop

Fun fact after reading Semper Viper

1) The plane still wants to go flying as low as 105 kts

2) First flight of the F-16 was an accident. It was supposed to be a high speed taxi test but the plane got airborne


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[Tom Kazansky]

7 hours ago, =52d= Skip said:

 

Flipping over you say?

 

Yep, that´s what they do

 

Until Rudder Authority gets some love I keep Nosewheel Steering engaged longer than I normally would, and do engage it earlier than I normally would. At slower speeds I use Left/ Right Wheelbrakes for fine control.

seems our DCS F-16C is more like... too stable

Edited February 25, 2021 by Tom Kazansky

[macedk]

Since we are playing a game ...
1. check you pedals for spiking. If bad put deadzone  on it (i use 3%).

2. just get better at controlling the rudder with ya feet. I'll bet you are deflecting 30% and above and that is way to much. 
3. F-16 flight model is not done yet, so you have to adapt. 

Harsh ?`well in most cases there is one solution, if we know the data .

So where do I come from...it has been 3 days since i made 2 crew help me troubleshoot my mistake. 

So I know the discipline but I am not the best at it, if that makes sense
 

[TobiasA]

If it too harsh in the center area, you can go to axis controls -> select rudder axis -> axis tune -> Curvature: 10 which will give a slightly less responsive rudder axis for fine adjustments, yet still allow larger "kicks" and leave those almost untouched.

Am 25.2.2021 um 14:25 schrieb Desert Fox:

Yeah, the Viper is quite light and loves to tip over or do similar strange things using all three dimensions in the process

In general, when you taxi, stay below 30 kts at all times and decelerate to around 10 kts (yeah, or even slower like dee-jay mentioned, really depends on the corner) for turns or anything not a straight taxi way. You can hit the "LIST" ICP button and then 6 for the INS page. This will give you the ground speed (G/S) in the lower right on your DED - quite handy for taxi since the HUD just starts at 50 kts and sometimes it's hard to just judge i feel but also for landings to decide for braking.

 

On landings you can just transition to flare once your rear wheels touch ground. Basically come in at around 180 or so and idle throttle (airbrakes should be out here anyways since final already) just above the runway (10ish meters give or take?) threshold to bleed speed while keeping AOA to around 12ish degrees. Once your rear wheels touch ground, balance her on the 12 degrees AOA and at around 100 knots roughly she'll put down the nose on her own. Just put enough stick here to soften the drop and not have her smash the nosegear. I usually get the NWS activated at around 50 knots or so since everything else just over-reacts and use soft (!), pulsing (!) differential braking below 100 knots to slow down a bit and also steer. Rudder should be enough above 100 knots when you flare anyways (using brakes here will make her drop the nose and smash it, you want to flare as long as possible since its the best way to slow down). Once nosewheel touches down, you can also fully extend the airbrakes (just tap them again, full airbrakes are locked until weight on front wheel to avoid scratching them on the runway during flare).

 

This should usually do the trick, needs some practice to get it done so maybe just do a lot of touch-and-goes on a long runway.

 

(oh, and be really soft on the brakes. Viper brakes were designed for the way lighter A version and never upgraded somehow, that's why they tend to just die away when you smash them on the way heavier C)

 

This. The brakes are so weak you can grind them to death while taxiing.

[Smokehouse]

Yea the flipping over while taxiing is so dumb,.....and unrealistic

 

[smire666]

I have rudder deadzone 5 and curvature 40%. It's angel-soft...

[Glide]

Pumping the brakes is the best option.  Anti-lock is not implemented yet.  You can see the slicks left behind as the tires drag.  If you are too hot on landing and might not make it, mash the brakes and use the rudder to steer like you are driving on snow: opposite rudder from the direction of the turn.  

Edited March 1, 2021 by glide

[Jayhawk1971]

Am 25.2.2021 um 08:42 schrieb =52d= Skip:

 

Flipping over you say?

 

Yep, that´s what they do

 

Until Rudder Authority gets some love I keep Nosewheel Steering engaged longer than I normally would, and do engage it earlier than I normally would. At slower speeds I use Left/ Right Wheelbrakes for fine control.

This video reminds of the that old classic Top Gear episode where they kept flipping those Robin Reliants over.

[Diesel_Thunder]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:11 AM, Smokehouse said:

Yea the flipping over while taxiing is so dumb,.....and unrealistic

 

 

Not really. The Viper as a ground vehicle has a narrow wheelbase, a very narrow wheel track, and a high CG (center of gravity). This makes it very easy to tip over in a high speed turn or careless handling.

 

Taxiing is generally limited to 25 kts, shallow turns at 15 kts, and tight turns (like a 90° turn) are limited to 10 kts. Not only does this help prevent some aircraft from tipping over, but also helps prevent excessive side loading of the landing gear. Civil/commercial aircraft have similar taxi limitations.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

You can do pretty cool drifting with an empty plane. 
With a full plane , you can do some pretty cool falling over. 

The back wheels are quite close together , not sure what the english word is but we call it 'spuhrweite' (track-width ?) is small so yeah it flips over very quicly when it's heavy with weights that hang besides the wheels. 

I do wish they would make the anti-skid function though. I don't mind the wobbly-ness, it seems accurate. 

[Machalot]

On 3/2/2021 at 12:04 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

not sure what the english word is but we call it 'spuhrweite' (track-width ?)

"Narrow wheel base"

[ruddy122]

The 10 was the same

Less than 3 kts for 180 deg turns

Less than 10 kts for 90 deg turns

If you taxi above 20 kts you’ll know it the 10 doesn’t like fast taxiing it will feel like your bouncing


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[Csgo GE oh yeah]

No i think it's track width. 
Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear axle. 

[Diesel_Thunder]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:53 AM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

No i think it's track width. 
Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear axle. 

 

That's correct

 

Wheel base = distance between main gear and nose gear.

Wheel track = distance between wheels on an axle, or in this case left and right main gear.

 

The Vipers wheel base is short because the nose gear is mounted at the engine intake instead of further forward on the nose (likely not enough room up front to put it, plus would need a longer strut)

 

The wheel track is very narrow due to the fuselage mounted main gears, with struts that are canted outwards as well (like a tripod) which helps a bit but is still quite narrow.

 

Couple that with a high CG (in other words, it's top heavy) and you have a vehicle that is very easy to tip over in turns if one is being careless or going to fast. And that is both with and without wing stores loaded.

 

The Viper is likely the most unstable aircraft on the ground for those reasons. Most other fighters have a longer wheel base and a wider wheel track. The Hog is really nice in that regard with the wing mounted main gears, but still possible to put one on it's wing by turned too sharp while taxiing fast.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[VampireNZ]

Haha tested this out last night with a small turn at around 30 knots, unsurprisingly resulting in tipping. What is possibly a little exaggerated is ultimately ending up entirely upside down sitting on your canopy after a couple of swerves from wingtip to wingtip lol. Might need toning down just a little...

[ruddy122]

Taxiing like T/O and landing is a challenge

A you don’t want to hit something expensive like a light pole

B you don’t want to damage the plane

C refer to your flight manual what’s a safe taxi speed and what’s not


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[Dee-Jay]

39 minutes ago, VampireNZ said:

Haha tested this out last night with a small turn at around 30 knots, unsurprisingly resulting in tipping. What is possibly a little exaggerated is ultimately ending up entirely upside down sitting on your canopy after a couple of swerves from wingtip to wingtip lol. Might need toning down just a little...

Not surprising. 30Kts is very high speed for taxing. Do no turn above 10-15Kts. And I am speaking about slight tuns. For more reduce speed below 10Kts.

[VampireNZ]

5 minutes ago, Dee-Jay said:

Not surprising. 30Kts is very high speed for taxing. Do no turn above 10-15Kts. And I am speaking about slight tuns. For more reduce speed below 10Kts.

 

Lol yes I am well aware of that - as I said I wanted to test the tipping. As I also said the tipping was as-per expected....it was the ending up upside down resting on the canopy that was probably a little OTT.

Edited March 7, 2021 by VampireNZ

[Myrsnipe]

Using my rudders I tipped over time and time again until I put on some heavier springs, it was just too easy to tumble around during takeoff with sensitive settings