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German planes(Anton and 109) are almost impossible to shoot down in multiplayer.


Snapage

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Yes! Huge issue right now! You break off a plane streaming flames, just for them to re-engage and continue fighting indefinitely. Makes multiplayer extremely frustrating, unrealistic, and almost unplayable at times.

If I’m flying a 109 and someone sets me alight, for the sake of realism and fairness, I bail out! But you can’t trust everyone to do the same. It has become ridiculous! Needs to be fixed!


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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree with OP. The issue for me is that sometimes you can shoot them down, yet most of the time it seems, even when I am flying 109 Anton and even Dora sometimes, the amount of .50 and 20mm that they can take is not what can be observed in actual guncam footage. I can shoot them down often, but it takes more ammo than I personally think it should. Again its inconsistent, sometimes it appears to be easier than other times. It often seems that the Mustang's guns are more effective than the Jug's. Jug rate of fire is 100 rounds per second, so if even a fraction of the rounds hit, it would be quite devastating to any aircraft with a burst of a few seconds. Don't take my word for it, check guncam footage. It just needs some tweaking I think, and it's an issue with the multiplayer connection I suspect.

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3 minutes ago, willzah1313 said:

I agree with OP. The issue for me is that sometimes you can shoot them down, yet most of the time it seems, even when I am flying 109 Anton and even Dora sometimes, the amount of .50 and 20mm that they can take is not what can be observed in actual guncam footage. I can shoot them down often, but it takes more ammo than I personally think it should. Again its inconsistent, sometimes it appears to be easier than other times. It often seems that the Mustang's guns are more effective than the Jug's. Jug rate of fire is 100 rounds per second, so if even a fraction of the rounds hit, it would be quite devastating to any aircraft with a burst of a few seconds. Don't take my word for it, check guncam footage. It just needs some tweaking I think, and it's an issue with the multiplayer connection I suspect.

It doesnˋt make sense to take guncam footage to judge the amount of hits necessary to down an aircraft, unless you have all footage from all attackers of this particular aircraft. You don't know, how often this aircraft was hit before that guncam footage was recorded. It just shows the final attack. And then you don't even know how many bullets really hit and where they hit.

 

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^^^

 

The gun cam footage is only recorded when the trigger is squeezed. So if the pilot shoots off five bursts at the same bandit, all landing hits, we only get the fifth segment of guncam footage in the archives/media/documentaries. 

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Cool! Lets throw out the guncam footage then, can we get some actual pilot's accounts that would demonstrate the DCS 109/A8/D9 damage is accurate? (for example, had to give him the whole 9 yards to force him to bail, which happens in DCS) I am curious if Nealius and iFoxRomeo would care to chime in on the actual claim about DCS here. For what it's worth, I fly the German aircraft too, and I love them! However being on the receiving end of allied fire seems to be inconsistent too. Sometimes a short burst kills you quick, and sometimes you can take a lot of damage, and in some cases as the OP showed, be quite on fire for several minutes. I get that it is very situational and it should be, but I suspect that some tweaking is still needed for accuracy, and that may be due to some sort of "bug". I am here trying to help make this an even more accurate sim, and ED has said clearly that it is WIP. If someone can demonstrate to those who think "German planes are too hard to shoot down" that it is indeed accurate, then great! I am all for it. But just saying "don't trust guncam footage" without adding anything, it isn't as constructive as adding what you think about the DM's current state as well, to provide some feedback. I just want to see what you guys think too! Cheers!

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1 hour ago, willzah1313 said:

Cool! Lets throw out the guncam footage then, can we get some actual pilot's accounts that would demonstrate the DCS 109/A8/D9 damage is accurate? (for example, had to give him the whole 9 yards to force him to bail, which happens in DCS) I am curious if Nealius and iFoxRomeo would care to chime in on the actual claim about DCS here. For what it's worth, I fly the German aircraft too, and I love them! However being on the receiving end of allied fire seems to be inconsistent too. Sometimes a short burst kills you quick, and sometimes you can take a lot of damage, and in some cases as the OP showed, be quite on fire for several minutes. I get that it is very situational and it should be, but I suspect that some tweaking is still needed for accuracy, and that may be due to some sort of "bug". I am here trying to help make this an even more accurate sim, and ED has said clearly that it is WIP. If someone can demonstrate to those who think "German planes are too hard to shoot down" that it is indeed accurate, then great! I am all for it. But just saying "don't trust guncam footage" without adding anything, it isn't as constructive as adding what you think about the DM's current state as well, to provide some feedback. I just want to see what you guys think too! Cheers!

Dude, seriously, no need to make such a drama ... Quote: "Cool! Lets throw out the guncam footage then,..." You should read what is written.


First of all, Guncams show what CAN happen to an aircraft that is shot at. But these guncam footages don't tell anything about the amount of bullets, the attacked aircraft received in total, because this footage doesn't necessarily include what happened before the final hit. Best examples are the shared kills, which point to the fact that at least two aircraft attacked the shot down aircraft. And you don't know how many bullets the shared attackers shot and how many of these bullets did hit and where they hit the aircraft. So yes guncam footage is good, but keep it in the whole context.

 

I totally agree that an aircraft that is burning for 5+ minutes seems very unlikely. ED is working on the DM. For DCS 2.7 bugfixes for the DM are announced.


The questions I've got: Is this a graphics bug(shows a fire when it should be a fuel/oil leak only) or does DCS not consider a structural failure due to fire?

 

I had a long DCS WWII break. Just yesterday I flew for the first time in months. A Mustang with its .50 cal set my 109 quickly on fire and my virtual pilot quickly blacked out from this fire.

 

I'm not saying everything is fine with the DM.
If you experience something that seems to be a bug, attach a track and a video. A track is important for ED to find the bug.

If these things happen during MP, leave and rejoin the server whenever you take a new aircraft, or when you have to repair/rearm/refuel it. That way the tracks are short and more likely to be not corrupted.

 



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I don't know the subject very well, but I observed that some people think that shooting down a aircraft = something break or explode, like a wing or the fuel burn out, and forget that only the spirfire has 20mm, in the wing so you need the be at the correct range for a good shot, and the others 12.7mm (in the wing too) wich for me are quite weak in all sims/game. German planes have 13mm, 20mm and 30mm and they are often in a better positon on the plane. The good shooter of the luftwaffe loved the 109f over the emil because the gun was perfectly in the center of the aircraft

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Looks like something broken in the DM where being 'on fire' doesnt move on to the next phase of damage like explosion, engine stopping, pilot death. Not sure from the first video if the other planes can have the same happen to them in the same way. DM is pretty complex stuff and unique to some airframes. Normally that pilot woudl have a red screen and pass out and it goes black within 30seconds or so, at least did when I tested last. They are tweaking these all the time, its pretty difficult to troubleshoot though, lets see whats in 2.7.

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I was chasing a 190D at great speed with a P51D just this morning.   Had him sitting pretty right in the convergence distance and annihilated him with a relatively short burst of 50cal.  It went fuel hit, fire, then smoke/flames very rapidly.   50cal IMO is the best/most stable round except when being too close or too slow on the bandit.  If your riding them and they are taking evasives then I would prefer the spitty's 20mm to put them down.    

 

I've observed quite a bit of MP action over the last two months and will agree the way AI takes damage compared to Human controlled does seem off.   I thought this was going to be rectified with the new DM. 

 

I've also seen some really terrible gunnery.

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Moin guys,

 

i think the DM is nearly true!

Watch the Video from Military Aviation History Channel! The german planes needs sometime only one hit to destroy the wing structure from a spit!!

The German ammo were high explosive bullets. The philosophy on both sides are completely different.

Axis=only few hits with high explosive bullet

Alli=lots hits with low explosive bullet

 

i think the german way was the better one

 

cu Jandar

 

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On 3/15/2021 at 11:48 AM, iFoxRomeo said:

Dude, seriously, no need to make such a drama ... 

 

There was no drama here on my end. Apologies if the text was interpreted that way. I seriously just wanted to hear more about your opinions about the DCS damage, as opposed to just the guncam footage. 

 

On 3/17/2021 at 2:32 AM, Jandar said:

i think the german way was the better one

 

Yeah, I would agree that the German guns are better in many ways, however that isn't what was in question here. The issues people have been having is that a typical engagement with a 109, or Anton in DCS, (in SoW server at least) is you will have a mix of several allied fighters getting hits on an aircraft, that proceeds to continue to fly away and land, or fly for several more minutes fighting and getting hit at nearly full speed. While that can also often result in the German fight being downed fairly quickly, it seems to be inconsistent in a way that may not be entirely accurate and perhaps there is a bug remaining in the damage model. It is a WIP from ED so its fine really, just something that many of us virtual pilots who fly often in MP have made comments about. I agree that the German planes guns are more lethal per round hit, and also that perhaps the German armor was more effective, but I feel that it needs tweaking, hence the OP. 

 

Again, no drama, just want to see what other DCS pilots think about DCS. Apologies to any I may have offended. Thanks for the additional feedback, cheers!

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Way i see it, the DM is work in progress.  It has bugs and is being worked on.  File reports with tracks is best way forward.  But be aware of this, if you are flying online with a beta damage model, expect things to be broken and not finished.  

 

As far as real world Ballistics 50 cal is amazing round, used it in a trusty m2 downrange and in a Barrett, does the job its meant to do.  As per what was required of it in ww2 it worked very well.  Now the Canons can absolutely be better at taking bombers out, it all depended upon what you use your TOOL for.  50 cal API is an amazingly effective round for the job its designed to do.   

 

Dcs, Marksmanship and pilotship plays a huge roll in being successful with the 50 cal and thats true to life from my experience on the ground anyway.


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@willzah1313

thx for the explanation.

 

@Enduro14

i'm of the same opinion as u. .50cal is also an effective ammo. The art of BFM/ACM is to use correctly the special design of your plane and weapons/ammos.

 

good hunting & horrido!

 

P.S. Hope mossie with tsetse is coming soon to hunt ju88 ;-))


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  • 1 month later...

I think that the 50's or the german planes DM is slightly off.  Like it doesn't seem to be ridiculously off but it just seems that either the 50's are a bit too weak or the 109/190 are just a touch bit to durable.  Average kill amount i've been seeing is 60-120 hits.  Some i've seen soak up over 200.  Yeah their heavily damaged but it just seems a bit to high in terms of hits.  I'd be nice if we had a WT level of after action so we could better diagnose this.  @BIGNEWYdoes ED have some kind of debugger/X-ray vision mode for the DM?  Would be nice for players to have that to test. 

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Last night on SOW I take on a 109....I managed to run on it, from different ranges, at least 6 burst of MG/Hispano....
He smoked first black...than black and white....then dropped one gear and....
10 minutes guys, 10 minutes of dogfight with me traying to catch up with him and he totally defensive only trying to run...and even at full power with my Spitfire barely managed to stay with him...
Trim perfect, energy management good but nothing to do...even with a lot of holes, smokes and a gear down...he fly in total tranquillity and match up my untouched Spitfire.
I several time already reported that, DM for german planes need to be at least investigated cause something strange happen.

 

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 The current damage it's quite spot on. With .50 cal you really have to fire at the convergence distance to be effective. The cannons are really effective on both sides, with 30mm and the 13mm just a bit 'underpowered'. Overall, the new DM is quite satisfactory.

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 The current damage it's quite spot on. With .50 cal you really have to fire at the convergence distance to be effective. The cannons are really effective on both sides, with 30mm and the 13mm just a bit 'underpowered'. Overall, the new DM is quite satisfactory.
Sure, but I feel that need tweaking, for the 20mm Hispano at least.

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Maybe ED could explain what are the variables taken into account and how they calculate the damage for each plane..

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  • 4 weeks later...
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On 2/28/2021 at 4:39 PM, Snapage said:

The German planes just don't go down without a ridiculous amount of ammunition being shot into them while a single hit on an allied plane kills or wounds the pilot or instantly makes the plane un-flyable.

 

 

SO I watched the first engagement, you going after the 109 through the clouds. You killed him at 0:41, he just didnt get the memo, you burst his water jacket, he has no more water in that thing, and its only a matter of time that his engine would quit. You don't need a furiously large fireball to call him dead, even if that is more satisfying.

 

As far as much ammo you put in, without the track, I am not sure how much of that ammo actually hit the 109. But I saw a fair amount of wiggles, and I can imagine that some of those shots passed through the meat of the aircraft or missed all together. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am glad I'm not the only one feeling like this...

Last night I engaged an already damaged 109 on the Storm of War server and ended up causing a fire. I broke off and monitored while going to help an ally and ended up engaging the same 109, still on fire who was turning to engage the friendly P-51.

I have, in the past, been set alight and have about 10 seconds before my pilot is dead.

Will try and get the track later but in the meantime, here is a video... Excuse the gunnery!

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aob5mTv4JnxZilWHnQqg_g7IhngK

Whole thing is about 3:50 and it is probably on fire for the best part of 3 minutes and I'm not sure what happened to it as I lost visual but couldn't see any flaming wrecks...

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