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AIM-7 not guiding on launch ? - UPDATE WITH TRACK & TacView


jojo

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6 hours ago, pyhg said:

I tried the mission AIM7TEST. Problem not reproduced : all my missiles go to my tracked target.

 

But in Tacview, I can see that none of the two background Mig29 ever chaffes ... so I do not see how this test is proving anything as far as chaffing is concerned.

 

Is there any way I can force one of them to chaff ? Should I lock the Mig29 in the middle for instance ? Or lock them alternatively ?

Tacview-20210304-082913-DCS-AIM7TEST.zip.acmi 115 kB · 3 downloads TestMission1.trk 451.98 kB · 3 downloads TestMission2.trk 622.13 kB · 4 downloads Tacview-20210304-083349-DCS-AIM7TEST.zip.acmi 244.78 kB · 3 downloads

 

Just going to suggest that the chaffing has nothing to do with it. The AI only chaffs, if it's launched against. The issue, rather, is that for some reason, you are seeing one target locked in the cockpit, while the sim is actually locked on a different target.

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On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:

https://we.tl/t-INeJOsfNTy

 

Here it is.

 

Alert 5 mission.


...

 

Both time STT lock before firing at 10Nm.

Both time the MiG-29 doesn't defend, it doesn't release any chaff at all and both time the AIM-7 goes chasing a Su-27 [Su-25] behind 

On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:

 

 

 

Downloaded your files and took a look at them last night and this morning.

 

The MiG-29As aren’t releasing chaff because they don’t have any to release. So that, in and of itself, is indicative of nothing.


Unfortunately, each time I played the track files, they played differently. In fact, the first time I played each, your missiles began their flight tracking your target and switched to something else later.

 

The TacView files, of course, show what you saw. It was hard to be certain in all cases but, in some, your missile was clearly locked on an Su-25 (judged by the missile’s flight path) and only later was decoyed by the -25’s chaff.

 

Interestingly enough, the same was happening to your wingman’s missiles. TacView shows both of you targeting the lead MiG-29. Both of your missiles, however, track as if locked on an Su-25 to the rear. Both are later decoyed by chaff.

 

Unfortunately I’m not in a position to help find an answer. I own the aircraft but haven’t more than a few minutes in the cockpit.

 

 

BTW, does anyone know if there’s a way to simply delete a message you’ve made in a thread? 

On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:
On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:

 

On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:

 

On 3/3/2021 at 1:00 AM, jojo said:

 


Edited by Ironhand

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It was Su-24 in the background 😉

 

I did replay one of the track and it performed like when I played the mission on the system.

 

But if it’s the only proof to debug and it’s playing differently depending on the computer...this is a problem 🤨

 

The problem seems to be in cluttered environment.

In the 8 Vs 8 Instant Action mission, the 8 Hornet get consistently slaughtered by the Su-27 and MiG-29.

Often IA Hornet doesn’t score a kill.

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11 hours ago, jojo said:

It was Su-24 in the background 😉

 

I did replay one of the track and it performed like when I played the mission on the system.

 

But if it’s the only proof to debug and it’s playing differently depending on the computer...this is a problem 🤨

 

The problem seems to be in cluttered environment.

In the 8 Vs 8 Instant Action mission, the 8 Hornet get consistently slaughtered by the Su-27 and MiG-29.

Often IA Hornet doesn’t score a kill.

 

Su-24s...yes...well...that's embarrassing.

 

Yes, as the sim has gotten more complex, TRK files have become much less reliable which is unfortunate on a number of levels. We can only hope that, eventually, something will be done to either fix or replace.


Edited by Ironhand
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I played it again: Alert 5 mission, Caucasus map (same as before).

 

STT lock before firing. AIM-7M settings: RCS SMALL/ no LOFT.

Firing on lead MiG-29A, the closest Su-24 is 3.7Nm behind.

 

The AIM-7M goes on a Su-24 behind, totally missing the MiG-29 which doesn't take any defensive action, not releasing any single chaff.

 

AIM-7M is unfit for duty. [Edit] Correction below

 

 


Edited by jojo
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19 hours ago, jojo said:

...STT lock before firing. AIM-7M settings: RCS SMALL/ no LOFT.

Firing on lead MiG-29A, the closest Su-24 is 3.7Nm behind.

The AIM-7M goes on a Su-24 behind, totally missing the MiG-29 which doesn't take any defensive action, not releasing any single chaff.

AIM-7M is unfit for duty.

 

 

 

The only problem with your conclusion is that, if you substitute another aircraft for the FA-18, the AIM-7s go after the MiG-29s just fine.

 

And, again, the MiGs don't release chaff because they aren't carrying any. The mission designer wanted to make killing them fairly easy.

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2 hours ago, Ironhand said:

 

The only problem with your conclusion is that, if you substitute another aircraft for the FA-18, the AIM-7s go after the MiG-29s just fine.

 

And, again, the MiGs don't release chaff because they aren't carrying any. The mission designer wanted to make killing them fairly easy.


On another forum someone just confirmed the same with F-14.

And despite STT lock and missile launch, the MiG-29 doesn’t try to avoid the missile which is targeting another aircraft.

 

Every single time I fly this mission, the result is the same, and I have confirmations by other users on YouTube, Discord and Checksix forum.

 

Edit: I have been able to fly the same mission with F-14B, and I have to admit that the AIM-7M did track and hit the intended (MiG-29 leader).

And this time the MiG-29 did try to avoid the missile.

 

So it seems the problem may not be the missile, but Hornet radar which is showing one target locked and guiding the missile on another one.

In my Hornet flight I begin to asses the situation in TWS, soft lock the MiG-29 leader, then transition to STT with Sensor Control Switch Right.

The target bow remains on the MiG-29.

A crank to the left then recommit on the right confirms that the HUD target box is on the MiG-29 and not on a Su-24 behind.


Edited by jojo

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11 hours ago, jojo said:

...

 

So it seems the problem may not be the missile, but Hornet radar which is showing one target locked and guiding the missile on another one.

...

 

 

Based on what I've seen in your TRK and TacView files as well as my own testing, that certainly seems to be what's happening. That's not to say that there may not be issues with the AIM-7s. But this particular problem seems to be related to something else.

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On my side, I did several tests with the 2AIM7TEST mission provided. I do not reproduce the same situation as in the Alert5 (Taskforce challenger) mission. This does not seem to be related to chaffing as I can indeed see in Tacview that the background Mig29s chaffes without the same effet...

 

I tend to believe, as other people, that in the Alert5 mission the hornet's radar is somehow (or sometimes) locking the background Su24 (hence his defensive behaviour).

However, I would not say that I am only locking the Su24 and never the front Mig29.
Because if that were the case, how can it explain the fact that when I shoot 3 or 4 missiles I can have the following happening : 2 or 3 missiles going on the Su-24, and one on the Mig29 ?

Possible explanation 1 : I am locking two targets simultaneously somehow ? (Visible lock : the Mig, Shadow lock : the Su24)

Possible explanation 2 : the lock is unstable and jitters between the two aircrafts ?

Possible explanation 3 : when I am close enough to the Mig29, the Su24 is completely out of the FOV (due to his dodging) and the locks resets to the Mig29

 

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to have a debug log of radar locks while playing that mission ? Because all these are really only assumptions.

Too bad Tacview does not show radar locks in DCS (as it does with BMS acmi records)

 

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1 hour ago, pyhg said:

Too bad Tacview does not show radar locks in DCS


Doesn’t it? What’s the sold line, then, between your aircraft and the aircraft you have targeted? I always thought that was what it signified. 

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Maybe I'm wrong, but for me this line is just based on the selected blue/red units in tacview (range and bearing between them). The radar lock on BMS is an animated dashed line if I remember correctly (which may be a different line from the simple solid one). 

And I read that

 

So, the solid lines in our tacviews are no proof that the lock was as intended/said. The track only can show it, when it plays correctly. 


Edited by pyhg
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5 hours ago, Frederf said:

Tacview supports radar lock lines if you pay for the full product and I guess if the sim supports exporting that particular info. I don't know if DCS does.

 

Mine is the payware version. I just double checked with an FC3 aircraft. The FC3 aircraft does, while the Hornet does not. Just wasn't paying close enough attention.

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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22 hours ago, Frederf said:

Tacview supports radar lock lines if you pay for the full product and I guess if the sim supports exporting that particular info. I don't know if DCS does.

Like Ironhand. I have a paid license, but it doesn't work with full fidelity modules, only FC3.

 

I provided a YouTube video of the engagement.

Each time I played the mission, it did happen the same.

The HUD target box clearly follows the MiG-29.


Edited by jojo

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