Cold & Dark: Ability to start next to aircraft

[AlpineGTA]

There's already the ability to walk around the terrain, after ejecting, for example. So how difficult would it be, when starting cold and dark, to add the option to start with the pilot stood next to the aircraft with the ability to walk around it? And if you walk up to a specific spot next to the cockpit, for example at the base of the ladder, if there's one modelled (or simply next to the door for helicopters), you could press a key bind that would trigger a first person animation of the pilot climbing into the cockpit and vise versa, climbing out of the cockpit if you're already in it. It might seem a small superfluous thing but I just think it would be a cool, fun little touch that would add to the immersion.

[DaWu]

It’s planned. First version will be on the super carrier where you can walk to your plane from the briefing room

[AlpineGTA]

Oh really! That's cool.

[Spurts]

That is half the reason I bought the SC

[Wardog21]

I would be all in for a pre-flight walk around in first person.

[nick10]

I want a cockney fitter to strap me into my spitfire then yell - “get a hun for me sir” then jump off and give me a wave. A dog too. 

[Northstar98]

+1

The Hornet already has its ladder, the L-39 ones deploy when you open the cockpit, there's also the A-10.

I think those are the only ones off the top of my head, though it would be nice if other aircraft got them.

Obviously for aircraft like helicopters it could just start with the door open.

I mean, we already have playable personnel (MANPADs) and our pilots can walk around - with a few more improvements we'll be all set.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[Tinkickef]

Yes what you (and I) wish for is definately going to be a thing.  During an interview given by Tim Davis on the fastjet performance channel, Simon Pearson, the business development director of Eagle Dynamics (and ex RAF Tornado GR3 walking and talking ballast) confirmed as much.

 

If you have not seen it yet, it is a cracking interview and gives some really good insights as to where DCS is heading in the future.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Tinkickef

[AlpineGTA]

Yes, I've watched that interview and do seem to remember it being mentioned now actually. Maybe that's where I subconsciously got the idea and had forgotten about it!

 

There might actually be more work involved than I at first thought. I took a VR flight in the Gazelle, landed it in a field and stepped outside of the cockpit for a wonder around outside; I noticed that the outside of the helicopter is not actually modelled, just the parts that you can see from the pilot's seat. So maybe there is a lot more work needed in modelling the outsides of the aircraft for VR.

[Northstar98]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:56 AM, AlpineGTA said:

Yes, I've watched that interview and do seem to remember it being mentioned now actually. Maybe that's where I subconsciously got the idea and had forgotten about it!

 

There might actually be more work involved than I at first thought. I took a VR flight in the Gazelle, landed it in a field and stepped outside of the cockpit for a wonder around outside; I noticed that the outside of the helicopter is not actually modelled, just the parts that you can see from the pilot's seat. So maybe there is a lot more work needed in modelling the outsides of the aircraft for VR.

You could have a transition in there while switching from outside and inside - which is how Arma does it. There's an animation and the screen goes black for a very brief moment to transition from outside to inside. It's not perfect but it's something.

I don't how much work it would actually take to get the rest of the exterior 3D model there with the cockpit view, after all, the model itself already exists, and I doubt there would be much of a performance impact (apart from aircraft like the F-14).

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[draconus]

During mission start both external and cockpit models are loaded. It's like switching between F1 and F2. Pilot can already walk, the aircraft has collision modeled. I don't see any work to be done here beside the option to allow that to happen and a binding.

[Northstar98]

On 3/15/2021 at 1:43 PM, draconus said:

During mission start both external and cockpit models are loaded. It's like switching between F1 and F2.

Yes, but what AlpineGTA was saying is that in the F1 view, the rest of the external model isn't actually there, it's loaded for F2, but it's not part of the interior model used in F1 - if that makes any sense.

In aircraft like the Su-25T, if you lean your head right up against the glass and look in the mirror, you can see through your aircraft where the exterior 3D model isn't present, at least last time I checked.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[Fri13]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

You could have a transition in there while switching from outside and inside - which is how Arma does it. There's an animation and the screen goes black for a very brief moment to transition from outside to inside. It's not perfect but it's something.

 

It is fairly nicely done, as there is no need for such camera shaking and other movement, or to be so proper animation in mount/unmount. 

With the blackening you know that you are entering somewhere or coming out. So in the fixed wing aircraft the ladder part could be animated as walking to it, grabbing it and climbing up is easy animation to do for few different ladders. But the more challenging part would be to enter in the cockpit. All the helmet etc placement, stepping in, grabbing from support, seating down etc. I think those are worthless. So it would be enough just see that you start climbing on ladders before it goes black for a few seconds and then you find yourself in cockpit. Even black screen with some recorded audio about noises would make it "immersive". 

 

Sure it would be nice to have a complete animation as it is not so challenging for a good animator, but it would be time consuming for the player to see it, and could result to fancy problems like accidentally pressing "Exit" and seeing the animation going again, and then back to "Enter". In VR it could be terrible if the head moves by animation instead be just nice smooth linear movement, and even then it can feel bad. 

 

But those animation basics are required in DCS. We need a lot of those. A infantry mounting/unmounting helicopters or APC and IFV. We need them to have various actions for the buildings (stacked up at the wall, entering the building doors, shooting from inside the room through the window, manning the roofs. Crawling on the ground, walking (already with some Georgian soldier), jogging, running, sprinting etc. 

There is a big workload for the couple animators to do all basic things when a dynamic good skeleton model is done. 

 

I fly only in VR. And I do not really get to enjoy from the external 3D model of the aircraft, unless it would be in the main menu hangar (why I would like to see it changing by the theme I have selected or randomly). So having capability to perform the walk around just with joystick could be nice thing. Like have a path around the aircraft that you can do with joystick Up/Down and Left/Right as a rail would be nice. You get to walk around the aircraft by just going left/right while looking to center pf the position of aircraft, or you could get to go under the wing with down movement and then up to the cockpit when you go to ladder position and push up. 

 

As DCS 3D modelers and texture artists makes nice work, especially Heatblur and Razbam, and it would be nice to enjoy from those works with a more nicely done environment as well walkaround. 

 

One of the first things that I made when I got the VR (RIft CV1 back in the days) was that I set my flight chair to 5x7 meter empty room and all I needed to do was when going for a "walkaround" was to reset the camera at the arm length to ceiling with little trial and error. It was very cool experience to walk on the ground, around the front section of the aircraft. 

Then place the HMD on the floor and reset, and now you could walk on the wing....

 

Never I have experienced the DCS aircraft quality such a manner. The external cameras do not make that experience.

I still remember crouching to admire the wheel strut...

 

And back then I got the "what if....." idea where you would do the rearming by yourself walking to the pylon, "grab it" and select from a list the weapon you want there.

Similar way as the old school combat games where you have a frontal view of the aircraft and you do it from it.

 

In DCS that would really, really bring out more admiration to the weapon rearming when it is not a kneeboard or a small pop-up window but actual 3-6 positions around the aircraft to get different view and be able click the proper stations (front of aircraft, front of left/right wing, crouched under cockpit / inlet to see center stations, one rear for a chute/flares/chaff). 

 

What would people do when after landing they need to rearm and refuel, they would jump out of the aircraft outside of it and actually operate the aircraft? In VR that would be like.... Being a happy kid. 

This because even the weapons models are so overly done (another thread how even missiles uses 4096 px and 32bit texture maps etc) that you can really put your face on them and admire the modeling. 

 

So totally agree that possibilities for few things are required:

 

- Walk around the aircraft at start-up if so wanted.

- Walk around the aircraft at rearming/refueling. 

 

And if not for the "cool factor", then because the 3D modelers, animators and texture artists deserves that "show room" for their work. 

 

 

[Northstar98]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:56 PM, Fri13 said:

It is fairly nicely done, as there is no need for such camera shaking and other movement, or to be so proper animation in mount/unmount. 

With the blackening you know that you are entering somewhere or coming out. So in the fixed wing aircraft the ladder part could be animated as walking to it, grabbing it and climbing up is easy animation to do for few different ladders.

Yeah, I mean you could pop the ladder down have an animation for climbing up.

For the player getting in you could have the screen go dark very briefly to transition, and once over just have it as it is now with the F1 view cold and dark.

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But the more challenging part would be to enter in the cockpit. All the helmet etc placement, stepping in, grabbing from support, seating down etc. I think those are worthless. So it would be enough just see that you start climbing on ladders before it goes black for a few seconds and then you find yourself in cockpit. Even black screen with some recorded audio about noises would make it "immersive".

I agree, plus it would require lots of little animations and stuff. I wouldn't say no, it is a bit frivolous.

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Sure it would be nice to have a complete animation as it is not so challenging for a good animator, but it would be time consuming for the player to see it, and could result to fancy problems like accidentally pressing "Exit" and seeing the animation going again, and then back to "Enter". In VR it could be terrible if the head moves by animation instead be just nice smooth linear movement, and even then it can feel bad.

I agree.

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But those animation basics are required in DCS. We need a lot of those. A infantry mounting/unmounting helicopters or APC and IFV. We need them to have various actions for the buildings (stacked up at the wall, entering the building doors, shooting from inside the room through the window, manning the roofs. Crawling on the ground, walking (already with some Georgian soldier), jogging, running, sprinting etc. 

There is a big workload for the couple animators to do all basic things when a dynamic good skeleton model is done.

I agree, maybe low-priority but definitely would be nice - the current animations are kinda there, but obviously there is a few stuff missing. We do already have playable personnel in CA, adding this would flesh it out. And like you said, it would be useful for IFVs/APCs, though personally I'd be happy if the doors open and they just teleport out one by one.

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I fly only in VR. And I do not really get to enjoy from the external 3D model of the aircraft, unless it would be in the main menu hangar (why I would like to see it changing by the theme I have selected or randomly). So having capability to perform the walk around just with joystick could be nice thing. Like have a path around the aircraft that you can do with joystick Up/Down and Left/Right as a rail would be nice. You get to walk around the aircraft by just going left/right while looking to center pf the position of aircraft, or you could get to go under the wing with down movement and then up to the cockpit when you go to ladder position and push up.

Yeah I guess. I'm 2D only and on a small screen (specs down below), so I get good use out of the various external views. It would be cool to do things like walkarounds, (the A-10C basically has every panel animated, and they open when repairing), but it might be a bit out of scope and I think there are bigger fish to fry.

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As DCS 3D modelers and texture artists makes nice work, especially Heatblur and Razbam, and it would be nice to enjoy from those works with a more nicely done environment as well walkaround.

Yeah, though with the Tomcat there are a couple of things - the gun port is empty - you can't see the gun inside it, unlike basically every other aircraft - I'm not sure if its ladders are animated, I'll do a quick check. EDIT: They are not. But on the F-15C and all of the A-10s, maintenance panels are animated (or at least some of them are).

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And back then I got the "what if....." idea where you would do the rearming by yourself walking to the pylon, "grab it" and select from a list the weapon you want there.

Similar way as the old school combat games where you have a frontal view of the aircraft and you do it from it.

I mean, that sounds out of scope for now. Only thing I would want here is maybe a generic weapon trolley/pallet that could have whatever weapon placed on it (so the pallet would have a virtual hardpoint, and via the loadout editor, you can but whatever weapon on it - obviously a few variants would be ideal, but it's only really to liven the place up. We are drifting OT though.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[fagulha]

On 3/14/2021 at 9:36 AM, Northstar98 said:

+1

 

The Hornet already has its ladder, the L-39 ones deploy when you open the cockpit, there's also the A-10.

 

I think those are the only ones off the top of my head, though it would be nice if other aircraft got them.

 

Obviously for aircraft like helicopters it could just start with the door open. 

 

I mean, we already have playable personnel (MANPADs) and our pilots can walk around - with a few more improvements we'll be all set.

 

 

The Hornet have the boarding ladder but to stow/unstow de boarding ladder i need to use a mod (Blue Angels Equipment mod that doesn´t work anymore) because ED doesn´t added that option like in the A-10 for example, with a radio command or a Keybind like the mod i used before. It´s a simple detail but important to me (i fly in VR and i like to do the walkaround before each flight).

[Northstar98]

On 3/15/2021 at 3:50 PM, fagulha said:

The Hornet have the boarding ladder but to stow/unstow de boarding ladder i need to use a mod (Blue Angels Equipment mod that doesn´t work anymore) because ED doesn´t added that option like in the A-10 for example, with a radio command or a Keybind like the mod i used before. It´s a simple detail but important to me (i fly in VR and i like to do the walkaround before each flight).

It's because in the A-10 there's a button in the cockpit that will deploy it.

In the hornet, the ladder has 2 handles (no idea what the technical name is for them - if there is one), you press a small tab in with your thumb and the handle pops out, once both are popped out the ladder can be moved. These can obviously only be operated outside of the aircraft (and I think they're animated in DCS). It would be cool if there was a ground crew menu to deploy it/retract it.

Here's a walkaround video where it shows deploying the ladder.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[Fri13]

43 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I mean, that sounds out of scope for now. Only thing I would want here is maybe a generic weapon trolley/pallet that could have whatever weapon placed on it (so the pallet would have a virtual hardpoint, and via the loadout editor, you can but whatever weapon on it - obviously a few variants would be ideal, but it's only really to liven the place up. We are drifting OT though.

 

I see it to belong to this, as when we would do the dark & cold start-up procedure, we would be standing next to the aircraft (or walk at it), and that is the possibility for a default start-up or a random generated mission or multiplayer. And in that moment when we walk next to the aircraft, we see the aircraft exterior including all the weapons and we need to be able decide what weapons we want aircraft to have before we jump in to cockpit to start it up. 

 

The rearming/refueling would happen similar manner as the start-up phase. If player is not happy for the armament, there is no need to do it in the cockpit when it could be done beautiful manner as well outside.

 

Sure it would be as well required that in the mission planning room and then at the mission briefing the aircraft loadouts are set, so when you walk at the plane it is already loaded. But still the walkarounds at start-up procedure would be good moment visually show the weapons and make the required changes there in that spot. 

I could see that there is no 3 min rearming delay on the cold start procedure phase when you just select weapons and you are good to go, but all others requires to wait the time while you can do it outside as well with kneeboard. 

 

I think it would help a lot to remember what is where when walkaround phase would be nicely visually presented that what you have loaded.

At least we shouldn't be required to be pulling out those "remove before take-off" pins.... Or should we?

 

 

[fagulha]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

It's because in the A-10 there's a button in the cockpit that will deploy it.

 

In the hornet, the ladder has 2 handles (no idea what the technical name is for them - if there is one), you press a small tab in with your thumb and the handle pops out, once both are popped out the ladder can be moved. These can obviously only be operated outside of the aircraft (and I think they're animated in DCS). It would be cool if there was a ground crew menu to deploy it/retract it.

 

Here's a walkaround video where it shows deploying the ladder.

 

I know where, and how, the Hornet boarding ladder opens and where is the panel in the fuselage (the same for open/close the cockpit from the outside). And i know how the A-10 stow the ladder (i own the module). That was not my point. My point was the ability to open the boarding ladder whenever i need/want. I agree with you, ED could add a radio command for the ground crew stow/unstow the boarding ladder similar to A-10 module. It was possible to me with a mod i was using but since last update the mod make DCS crash when using the RWR. So, no more boarding ladder for me. I tried to mess with the lua file but i don´t know much, or anything, of coding. I tried.

Thank you nevertheless for you help/input.

[Fri13]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

These can obviously only be operated outside of the aircraft (and I think they're animated in DCS). It would be cool if there was a ground crew menu to deploy it/retract it.

 

Little bit like that. 

 

All ground crew animations are done per the aircraft on the ground, but everything is positioned based the aircraft angle and position on the parking slot. A acceptable margin is given for the aircraft position and angle on parking slot (exaggerated in the image) so that all aircraft could be located there.

 

Then we could have actually proper animation that we get ground crews rearming by pulling the weapons aside/under the aircraft, pull the hoses to proper positions as vehicles and ground crew starting positions would be correct to the model. So we could see a ground crew personnel to walk by and open those ladders as well, or even we do it ourself after walkaround by just clicking the proper position where ladders are located. 

 

These things could open a nice new differences to missions where example Hornet pilot would use ground crew placed ladders in airbase, but use a built-in ladders in road-base.

Of course we could get lots of posts about people at first times questioning "How do I get in the cockpit?"

 

[Northstar98]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:11 PM, fagulha said:

I know where, and how, the Hornet boarding ladder opens and where is the panel in the fuselage (the same for open/close the cockpit from the outside). And i know how the A-10 stow the ladder (i own the module). That was not my point.

Yeah, but it's due to the different schemes as to why one is implemented and one isn't - if you hit that button in the A-10C you can't retract the ladder, so that's why ED put the ground crew option in there to retract it.

In the Hornet, you can't do anything with the ladder from inside the cockpit, so they didn't feel the need to implement anything (though I remember the ladder would be initially deployed and it would retract when you actually took control). I guess ED felt that without the ability to have a walkaround or a practical reason to use it, it wasn't implemented (but is there for the future).

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My point was the ability to open the boarding ladder whenever i need/want. I agree with you, ED could add a radio command for the ground crew stow/unstow the boarding ladder similar to A-10 module.

Yeah, agreed. And I wish it would be extended to other modules that have their ladders (like the L-39 for instance, which is just in sync with the canopy).

If/when we get walkaround capability, it would be great to be able to walk up to the aircraft, click on the handles (or whatever) to deploy the ladder, press a bind or something to climb up and get in (maybe get an animation for it) or transition or whatever, then have a ground crew option to stow the ladder.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
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[fagulha]

2 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Yeah, but it's due to the different schemes as to why one is implemented and one isn't - if you hit that button in the A-10C you can't retract the ladder, so that's why ED put the ground crew option in there to retract it.

 

In the Hornet, you can't do anything with the ladder from inside the cockpit, so they didn't feel the need to implement anything (though I remember the ladder would be initially deployed and it would retract when you actually took control). I guess ED felt that without the ability to have a walkaround or a practical reason to use it, it wasn't implemented (but is there for the future).

 

 

Yeah, agreed. And I wish it would be extended to other modules that have their ladders (like the L-39 for instance, which is just in sync with the canopy).

 

If/when we get walkaround capability, it would be great to be able to walk up to the aircraft, click on the handles (or whatever) to deploy the ladder, press a bind or something to climb up and get in (maybe get an animation for it) or transition or whatever, then have a ground crew option to stow the ladder.

Do you know how to code or mess with lua files? if so, i can send you the Mod and you could check which lines to change. The Blue Angels Equipment mod has some features but as i said i only use it for the option to bind a key to the boarding ladder. I tried to see which line to change in F18.lua file but i didn´t find it. 

[AlpineGTA]

I think it would be nice to have animations climbing up ladders and into the cockpit etc. but for me the most important thing is to be able to walk around the aircraft externally, so if it would make it quicker to implement I think something like a brief black screen transition, as has been suggested, between cockpit and outside would work fine and animations could be worked on for a later date.

[fagulha]

35 minutes ago, AlpineGTA said:

I think it would be nice to have animations climbing up ladders and into the cockpit etc. but for me the most important thing is to be able to walk around the aircraft externally, so if it would make it quicker to implement I think something like a brief black screen transition, as has been suggested, between cockpit and outside would work fine and animations could be worked on for a later date.

Indeed.