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mi-8 bomb sight?


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On 3/2/2021 at 11:56 PM, Fawaz_Q8 said:

just wondering if there is any upcoming update featuring the mi-8 with bomb-sight ? in the future?

 

I don't have a link right now but i remember PilotMi8 saying that they will not develop the bomb sight for the MI-8. As always, everything is subject to change in DCS - so maybe if they ever overhaul the MI-8 maybe they will do it? But last info i know is: no.

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The Mi-8 / Mi-24 team does not plan to implement that feature for several reasons:

Dropping bombs from helicopters is ineffective and dangerous - to hit a target you have to overfly it at constant speed and altitude. Because of that you'll be a fantastic target for enemy ground forced during your bomb run. It really only works in training missions or some asymmetric war scenarios - and even then it's rarely worth it.

 

Modelling, coding and testing the bombing sight would take away valuable resources (man hours), that could be used to cover more popular options, like multi crew or a reworked flight deck.

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Just now, Viktor_UHPK said:

The Mi-8 / Mi-24 team does not plan to implement that feature for several reasons:

Dropping bombs from helicopters is ineffective and dangerous - to hit a target you have to overfly it at constant speed and altitude. Because of that you'll be a fantastic target for enemy ground forced during your bomb run. It really only works in training missions or some asymmetric war scenarios - and even then it's rarely worth it.

 

There are far more different scenarios for that than just bombing a enemy. It is just a nearsightness to think about dropping a bomb on a vehicle or enemy controlled area.

 

In the military you prepare to destroy your own areas for the defense. You destroy railways, you destroy roads, you destroy bridges, factories and such. It is normal procedure to delay the enemy movement and capability utilize somethin they have conquered. 

 

So example you can use a helicopter to drop a bombs to destroy a bride where you can't get a pioneer troops to demolish it properly. It is quick and effective way to quickly get a bomb in place as helicopters can operate from a FARP or FOB, without requirement to call a fighter or so on. 

And this works in the symmetric wars as well.

 

The bombing sight is similar as the laying down the mines. It is niche situation when you are going to quickly lay down mines as it is just a slowing down the enemy for a while when you leave the mines visible. On a grassland you will not drive over the land when mines are dropped there as you can't see them, but you have soldiers walking picking up them from the ground and clearing the pathway. But if it saves you time to make the vehicles stop at the open area so you can shoot them, it is a win. 

Try to do that same thing on the paved road and enemy will just laugh at you as your mines are visible and can be just droven past. 

That is why you will blow a paved road full of holes or you just cover it with the sand from long distance and you dig mines to that sand. Now the mines can be anywhere and it slows down the enemy as well. 

 

In a war the primary task is not to destroy the enemy. It is to deny their movement, deny their access and deny their means to fight. When the enemy is weak, when it can't move, when it can't utilize the ground they are holding, then you can strike at them. 

 

Nothing of that is simulated in the DCS as there is no fear, there is no requirements to use roads instead just move over any terrain etc, even through the forests and all like nothing. We don't even have infantry in the buildings making the defensive positions that are able to hold 6-9 times numerous enemy by that. We just barely get infantry placed on the roofs of the buildings, it is at least something better like have the MANPADS on the tall buildings to give nicer cover. But we don't have anything in ground war that actually is the infantry as it is just few soldiers and all the engagements between them are instantaneous, matter of couple seconds instead minutes or hours.

 

Just now, Viktor_UHPK said:

Modelling, coding and testing the bombing sight would take away valuable resources (man hours), that could be used to cover more popular options, like multi crew or a reworked flight deck.

 

Yes, again this same argument that is just invalid, as there is always something else that is "higher in priority" and eventually nothin gets done as it is arguments continually that what needs to be done. 

 

One to model a bomb sight is literally from a good 3D modeler a few hours work if they have the photos and dimensions about it. Texture artist does it quickly if they have something already to use (that they do). Programmer that knows how the sights and such systems work, can quickly program the system how it should work. The main work is again the research and dedication to just do it. And that is why there was suppose to be the Open Beta, that new things can be rapidly tested by the community. And report back. But even that has been broken by the few community members. 

 

So maybe if one is working the system in the Mi-24, or they are revisiting the Mi-8 for the cockpit improvements etc, they could then spend just little more time to do it.

 

https://www.16va.be/page_mi-8t_opb1r.html

 

image.png

 

The Mi-24 already has a challenging work with the co-pilot missile guidance sight, it is easy to do for a display user, but real challenge for a VR user as they would need to place their head in that position but where do they support their head? Or is it made unrealistic like you just click and now your full view in normal position is in the one eye sight as long you press and hold a button? 

 

Their developers has already worked for such a problem, the sight has just different functionality.  

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On 3/5/2021 at 4:37 PM, Fri13 said:

 

There are far more different scenarios for that than just bombing a enemy. It is just a nearsightness to think about dropping a bomb on a vehicle or enemy controlled area.

 

In the military you prepare to destroy your own areas for the defense. You destroy railways, you destroy roads, you destroy bridges, factories and such. It is normal procedure to delay the enemy movement and capability utilize somethin they have conquered. 

 

So example you can use a helicopter to drop a bombs to destroy a bride where you can't get a pioneer troops to demolish it properly. It is quick and effective way to quickly get a bomb in place as helicopters can operate from a FARP or FOB, without requirement to call a fighter or so on. 

And this works in the symmetric wars as well.

 

The bombing sight is similar as the laying down the mines. It is niche situation when you are going to quickly lay down mines as it is just a slowing down the enemy for a while when you leave the mines visible. On a grassland you will not drive over the land when mines are dropped there as you can't see them, but you have soldiers walking picking up them from the ground and clearing the pathway. But if it saves you time to make the vehicles stop at the open area so you can shoot them, it is a win. 

Try to do that same thing on the paved road and enemy will just laugh at you as your mines are visible and can be just droven past. 

That is why you will blow a paved road full of holes or you just cover it with the sand from long distance and you dig mines to that sand. Now the mines can be anywhere and it slows down the enemy as well. 

 

In a war the primary task is not to destroy the enemy. It is to deny their movement, deny their access and deny their means to fight. When the enemy is weak, when it can't move, when it can't utilize the ground they are holding, then you can strike at them. 

 

Nothing of that is simulated in the DCS as there is no fear, there is no requirements to use roads instead just move over any terrain etc, even through the forests and all like nothing. We don't even have infantry in the buildings making the defensive positions that are able to hold 6-9 times numerous enemy by that. We just barely get infantry placed on the roofs of the buildings, it is at least something better like have the MANPADS on the tall buildings to give nicer cover. But we don't have anything in ground war that actually is the infantry as it is just few soldiers and all the engagements between them are instantaneous, matter of couple seconds instead minutes or hours.

 

 

Yes, again this same argument that is just invalid, as there is always something else that is "higher in priority" and eventually nothin gets done as it is arguments continually that what needs to be done. 

 

One to model a bomb sight is literally from a good 3D modeler a few hours work if they have the photos and dimensions about it. Texture artist does it quickly if they have something already to use (that they do). Programmer that knows how the sights and such systems work, can quickly program the system how it should work. The main work is again the research and dedication to just do it. And that is why there was suppose to be the Open Beta, that new things can be rapidly tested by the community. And report back. But even that has been broken by the few community members. 

 

So maybe if one is working the system in the Mi-24, or they are revisiting the Mi-8 for the cockpit improvements etc, they could then spend just little more time to do it.

 

https://www.16va.be/page_mi-8t_opb1r.html

 

image.png

 

The Mi-24 already has a challenging work with the co-pilot missile guidance sight, it is easy to do for a display user, but real challenge for a VR user as they would need to place their head in that position but where do they support their head? Or is it made unrealistic like you just click and now your full view in normal position is in the one eye sight as long you press and hold a button? 

 

Their developers has already worked for such a problem, the sight has just different functionality.  

 

Well said.

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On 3/5/2021 at 2:37 PM, Fri13 said:

 

There are far more different scenarios for that than just bombing a enemy. It is just a nearsightness to think about dropping a bomb on a vehicle or enemy controlled area.

 

In the military you prepare to destroy your own areas for the defense. You destroy railways, you destroy roads, you destroy bridges, factories and such. It is normal procedure to delay the enemy movement and capability utilize somethin they have conquered. 

 

So example you can use a helicopter to drop a bombs to destroy a bride where you can't get a pioneer troops to demolish it properly. It is quick and effective way to quickly get a bomb in place as helicopters can operate from a FARP or FOB, without requirement to call a fighter or so on. 

And this works in the symmetric wars as well.

 

The bombing sight is similar as the laying down the mines. It is niche situation when you are going to quickly lay down mines as it is just a slowing down the enemy for a while when you leave the mines visible. On a grassland you will not drive over the land when mines are dropped there as you can't see them, but you have soldiers walking picking up them from the ground and clearing the pathway. But if it saves you time to make the vehicles stop at the open area so you can shoot them, it is a win. 

Try to do that same thing on the paved road and enemy will just laugh at you as your mines are visible and can be just droven past. 

That is why you will blow a paved road full of holes or you just cover it with the sand from long distance and you dig mines to that sand. Now the mines can be anywhere and it slows down the enemy as well. 

 

In a war the primary task is not to destroy the enemy. It is to deny their movement, deny their access and deny their means to fight. When the enemy is weak, when it can't move, when it can't utilize the ground they are holding, then you can strike at them. 

 

Nothing of that is simulated in the DCS as there is no fear, there is no requirements to use roads instead just move over any terrain etc, even through the forests and all like nothing. We don't even have infantry in the buildings making the defensive positions that are able to hold 6-9 times numerous enemy by that. We just barely get infantry placed on the roofs of the buildings, it is at least something better like have the MANPADS on the tall buildings to give nicer cover. But we don't have anything in ground war that actually is the infantry as it is just few soldiers and all the engagements between them are instantaneous, matter of couple seconds instead minutes or hours.

 

 

Yes, again this same argument that is just invalid, as there is always something else that is "higher in priority" and eventually nothin gets done as it is arguments continually that what needs to be done. 

 

One to model a bomb sight is literally from a good 3D modeler a few hours work if they have the photos and dimensions about it. Texture artist does it quickly if they have something already to use (that they do). Programmer that knows how the sights and such systems work, can quickly program the system how it should work. The main work is again the research and dedication to just do it. And that is why there was suppose to be the Open Beta, that new things can be rapidly tested by the community. And report back. But even that has been broken by the few community members. 

 

So maybe if one is working the system in the Mi-24, or they are revisiting the Mi-8 for the cockpit improvements etc, they could then spend just little more time to do it.

 

The Mi-24 already has a challenging work with the co-pilot missile guidance sight, it is easy to do for a display user, but real challenge for a VR user as they would need to place their head in that position but where do they support their head? Or is it made unrealistic like you just click and now your full view in normal position is in the one eye sight as long you press and hold a button? 

 

Their developers has already worked for such a problem, the sight has just different functionality.  

 

It's a good argumentation and I understand your point. You're looking for more options and variety of gameplay. 

Personally, I'm rather interested in important features that are used on a daily basis and not so much the rare cases - and I think this is also the developer's view.

 

Most importantly that would be proper and more immersive cargo and infantry operations: medevac, paratroops, quick insertions / extractions, fast-roping and hoisting. This is what military transport helicopters are really build for and what they actually do in 95% of the time. 

Paired with multi-crew and even more realistic flight dynamics (loss of tail rotor effectiveness) would make the Mi-8 an epic simulation of its' real counterpart.

 

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3 minutes ago, Viktor_UHPK said:

 

It's a good argumentation and I understand your point. You're looking for more options and variety of gameplay. 

Personally, I'm rather interested in important features that are used on a daily basis and not so much the rare cases - and I think this is also the developer's view.

 

I didn't mean that bombsight needs to be priority. It can very well be a tier 2 or tier 3 category feature to be added, but if there is no way to add something more complex, then you can implement something from the lower tier. 

 

3 minutes ago, Viktor_UHPK said:

Most importantly that would be proper and more immersive cargo and infantry operations: medevac, paratroops, quick insertions / extractions, fast-roping and hoisting. This is what military transport helicopters are really build for and what they actually do in 95% of the time. 

Paired with multi-crew and even more realistic flight dynamics (loss of tail rotor effectiveness) would make the Mi-8 an epic simulation of its' real counterpart.

 

I would take all of them, but as well we need the DCS core to support those capabilities first. Like the infantry modeling, so we can see the proper animations when infantry mount/unmount vehicle and seats in, to have stretchers inside, to have the soldiers appear to rope don, and most importantly have a proper in-game Search And Rescue mechanism, rearming, resupply functions and communications with the ground units dynamically, automatically and intelligent manner that no scripting or no any additions are required whatsoever.

 

When those are coming/to be done, meanwhile adding a bombing sight should be fairly easy task to add scratch something from to-do list.  

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You forgot the part where devs get sidelined for some "urgent" other stuff on a regular basis 😄

 

You guys are talking gunsights and fast roping troops and I'm here waiting for months for the cockpit lights and sling loading to be fixed:music_whistling:

 

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4 hours ago, sLYFa said:

You forgot the part where devs get sidelined for some "urgent" other stuff on a regular basis 😄

 

You guys are talking gunsights and fast roping troops and I'm here waiting for months for the cockpit lights and sling loading to be fixed:music_whistling:

 

Razbam was asked for years to add a seat height adjustment functionality to already modeled switch and even animated one.

 

When it was finally added just months ago (after 3+ years) they did add the keyboard bindings to it, the required Up and Down functions. 

 But they did not add any other input device support, just keyboard. So player can not use the switch with joystick or throttle or any button box.

It was required a one guy in the forum to write the couple lines to be added to the controls input file (the standard one in DCS) to add that capability. And he posted it to the forum threat for developers to copy it.

All there is, is just silence about it by Razbam as others are thankful for this one guy who by his spare time needs to do work of the programmers. And this is not first time here....

 

So if it really looks like DCS modules takes heavily time when there are programmers working that spend all their time elsewhere than working, or doesn't know how to do simple things right....

And so on it would then be expected that such programmers feel threatened when someone points that doing something relative simple is not like dividing a red sea for others....

 

 

 

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Well, as much fun as it would  be, I have to admit that releasing bombs above targets is something that almost never happen in our missions. As Viktor said, it is stupidly dangerous, not only because you have to fly over your target, but also because a bomb as small as 100kg is very likely to blow your Mi-8 up. There is a procedure in the Mi-8 manual to release bombs while using the current site. The problem is that this procedures becomes exponentially inacurate as you are flying higher (and by higher I mean really a few hundred feet higher, I am not talking about high altitude drop). So you are quickly attracted to fly low to make sure you hit the target (like 200 ft) but this put you into the blast radius very fast.

So, yes, I am pretty sure that there will be no real application in our DCS missions for that. 

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There is a reason why Germans created Stuka dive bombers. Yes, we can bomb with helicopters, but to be precise at all we either need to fly low or slow, or both. That is just too dangerous. Good reason to use bombs was given in one the posts above by destroying bridges. But to achieve that we can use existing sight. Mi8 is transport heli and I would rather devs use manpower to fix existing bugs that really limit us in that role(slingload bug).

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1 hour ago, BaD CrC said:

Well, to do this there is no need for a sight at all (or courage in that case). Fly over a town above 2000 ft in case some of the civilians down there have an AK47, don t aim at anything, just drop.

 

That is the common reason why you don't need bombing sight as you can just fly slow above target area and let the weapon do the area damage. 

But 2000 ft is only a 600 meters and that is not much and very dangerous.

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  • ED Team

removed off topic petty arguing, please keep the topic on the bomb sight. 

 

As far as I am aware we have no plans to add a bomb sight. 

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  • 4 months later...

Any personal preference is a valid argument. And completely agree with Fri13. If only to allow mission/campaign  makers a more complete toolset. I would sure like a bit more variety of tasks. (for the choppers section that is) I mean; a million functions and variables to be set, gee, that's an impressive show of dedication and skill. Just  too bad most of these functions remain dormant and are only noticeable when the sim decides it's time for a system failure.

So, given that there is a sight in the real life craft, yeah i would definitely dig if there was one in sim. And barrel bombs. Those too. Insurgents and hostile states alike are loving these things cuz more cheap is more BANG for your buck. And more terrified citizens is more Team America coming to save the day! FUNK YEAH!

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