Radar (FCR?) questions

[DaemonPhobos]

hace 7 horas, veenee dijo:

so the Apache in DCS won't have APKWS?

 

I can't say for sure that it won't have it since I'm not a dev.

However, it wouldn't be realistic for any Longbow apache from initial operational capability up to around 2015, date in which the system was apparently integrated.

Official mid 2012 documents don't list it in their authorized loadouts.

 

[veenee]

it probably won't have them then, for the same reason F-16 won't

[ZeroReady]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:33 PM, Relic said:

I know it’s a sore spot but my understanding is kiowas got canned because apaches can do their job just as good. Not saying I know for a fact that that’s true, just assuming that if we’re simply talking NOE flight and ninja lazing I bet the Apache can do it just fine in terms of DCS.

 

Yeah being lazed onto the Sam by the fast mover would be sweet. Pair of F18s or whatever with targeting pod lazing from long ways off. Can get some good use out of the Apache while it’s in EA as an A model that way, or if for some reason the FCR wouldn’t be able to pick up the target.

 

Or simply having f18s perform SEAD, others provide cap, and apaches go in to take out tanks and troops would be a nice mission.

 

lots of fun scenarios can be done

 

cant freaking wait lol

The laser in DCS only reaches out to 8 miles, so there will still be limitations.

[frostycab]

I've been trying to think back to the 90's when I had Longbow 2, and I'm wondering if some of the features I remember from that will be a thing in DCS.

 

One particularly cool thing that I remember was popping the radar above a hill, doing a sweep for targets and then dropping back into cover. I seem to remember that you had the ability to "draw" a killbox over the radar's stored targets display and then loft Hellfires into that area, with the computer prioritising the target sequence for you. I have no idea if it was a real-world thing, or even if I just dreamt it one night. 

[frostycab]

It would clearly be useless against a moving target, but great for fixed emplacements such as larger SAM sites, command posts and the like. I really hope its a feature they're going to implement.

 

I did read a few comments from people saying that getting the FCR is not a given, and that many real-world Longbow deployed without FCR as you only need one radar-equipped aircraft to disseminate target data all the others in the strike package. However, while that may be true it still suggests that the FCR is central to the tactics and operation of Longbow Apaches. I would still say that we should get the FCR as without it the aircraft's capabilities would be seriously limited.

Edited April 5, 2021 by frostycab

[S. Low]

1 hour ago, frostycab said:

It would clearly be useless against a moving target, but great for fixed emplacements such as larger SAM sites, command posts and the like. I really hope its a feature they're going to implement.

 

I did read a few comments from people saying that getting the FCR is not a given, and that many real-world Longbow deployed without FCR as you only need one radar-equipped aircraft to disseminate target data all the others in the strike package. However, while that may be true it still suggests that the FCR is central to the tactics and operation of Longbow Apaches. I would still say that we should get the FCR as without it the aircraft's capabilities would be seriously limited.

 

Well popping radar dome over a tree line or hill, and the hellfire loft function are real. But I'll be curious to see how DCS implements it. 

[DaemonPhobos]

hace 3 horas, frostycab dijo:

It would clearly be useless against a moving target, but great for fixed emplacements such as larger SAM sites, command posts and the like. I really hope its a feature they're going to implement.

 

I did read a few comments from people saying that getting the FCR is not a given, and that many real-world Longbow deployed without FCR as you only need one radar-equipped aircraft to disseminate target data all the others in the strike package. However, while that may be true it still suggests that the FCR is central to the tactics and operation of Longbow Apaches. I would still say that we should get the FCR as without it the aircraft's capabilities would be seriously limited.

 

 

hace 1 hora, Relic dijo:

Well popping radar dome over a tree line or hill, and the hellfire loft function are real. But I'll be curious to see how DCS implements it. 

 

FCR is going to be implemented, there is absolutely no doubt about that, there is a lot of easily accessible information about it's performance and operation. (Scan sizes, effective range, operating procedures, etc).

Perhaps it won't be at early access, though.

Hellfire loft can be accomplished with LOAL HI mode, either with a remote designator or with RFHO mode for RF missiles, along with SPOT reports, etc.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by DaemonPhobos

[arneh]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:27 AM, frostycab said:

I've been trying to think back to the 90's when I had Longbow 2, and I'm wondering if some of the features I remember from that will be a thing in DCS.

 

One particularly cool thing that I remember was popping the radar above a hill, doing a sweep for targets and then dropping back into cover. I seem to remember that you had the ability to "draw" a killbox over the radar's stored targets display and then loft Hellfires into that area, with the computer prioritising the target sequence for you. I have no idea if it was a real-world thing, or even if I just dreamt it one night. 

It was a thing according to McDonnell Douglas marketing videos back in the day. I assume the capability is still there.

 

[joelsi]

The capability is still very much a thing on the version we are getting. If anyone wants details about the Apache we are getting the correct IRL manual is just one simple Google search away. ("AH-64D Manual" to Google works fine)

[G.J.S]

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte031.en.html

 

Public gen on the type used by Longbow.

[Chirpy.]

On 3/5/2021 at 10:23 AM, Repth said:

FCR = Fire Control Radar

 

According to the market piece from the manufacturer it looks like our version of the Longbow radar will not have 360 degree targeting capability since that was a recent upgrade applied to the AH-64E, but I could easily be wrong about that. 

 

it is capable of both AA and AG 

 

as far as I know the apache doesn't have link16, but it should be able to talk to other Apaches, Kiowas, and land units. 

 

with an 8km range it probably won't be very useful for AWACS duties. 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the FCR has 4 FOVs for ground targets and a 360 sweep for air targets

[Fri13]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:41 AM, DaemonPhobos said:

The apache would receive a massive situational awareness boost if ED decides to model all the various support elements that the LBA is capable of exchanging information with.

 

Would be nice that ED would build a complete framework for the communications. Starting with planning and then the radio communications how units will find out who is where and what is situation, and how to make a contact with someone even visually and communicate. And then finally end up to datalinks and various personnel that can work between the units. 

 

 

[Reticuli]

I don't see how there's going to be gameplay balance with the existing helos if the DCS Apache gets the Longbow radar.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Reticuli

[veenee]

should there be a balance?

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Reticuli said:

I don't see how there's going to be gameplay balance with the existing helos if the DCS Apache gets the Longbow radar.

 

DCS has never been about balance, it's been about realistic aircraft modelling within the parameters of legal simulation.  This has been a common critique in other aircraft threads, but it is based on the false premise that everyone wants to play head-to-head gameplay in DCS, which is not the case.  In fact it's been stated multiple times by ED in previous interviews that the majority of their player base plays single-player content, not competitive multiplayer.

 

Having said that, anyone that wants to restrict FCR use on a server or any mission simply needs to remove it from the warehouses of the map, like other servers that sometimes restrict munitions like AMRAAMs, R-27s, or JSOWs, etc.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Raptor9

[kseremak]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:14 PM, Sinclair_76 said:

Most A models, dash depending, didn't even have GPS and a old school INS with tons of drift. You had to update the INS by overflying/lasing known points. If you had more than 7 waypoints you had re reprogram them in flight. No tactical situation display (TSD) for the back seater to navigate and build situational awareness from. The CPG had to help his backseater navigate to the correct RV point and such.

 

Call me strange but A model restrictions sounds like a ton of fun to operate as well in a computer game. Even if as real pilot i would appreciate i don't have to risk my life when flying D model firing from afar by radar, fire-and-forget Hellfires and having perfect GPS position all the time.

 

On 3/5/2021 at 7:24 PM, Raptor9 said:

The Longbow FCR is unfortunately probably the most difficult aspect of the AH-64D to model due to very little un-restricted, open-source (ie internet or other media) info available.

 

I agree with you, but overall I don't like this /not to touch/ atmosphere around Apache FCR. Soon it will be the most important Apache system in use in DCS. If ED have volountairly chosen to make such modern variant i expect they can make it in fairly realistic way with some documentation. Nobody forced ED to chose AH-64D. If i remember well many people here were speculating the /highly anticipated module/ is Apache but almost everyone was expecting AH-64A, stating Longbow is impossible and may be too calssified. Going back a few months in memory AH-64D announcment was quite a surprise for most people.

 

I have faith in ED team, i'm believe they know what they are doing, even more so after fantastic Mi-24 release, i love every second with this helicopter. Long live ED!

Edited June 28, 2021 by kseremak

[DaemonPhobos]

First, having to balance modules would be good if ED wanted to make a competitive game.

This is a simulator, it's marketed as one, Digital combat simulator.

It's meant to simulate an aircraft as close as possible, the aircraft they choose Is not relevant, because, in real life, there is no such thing as balance.

 

hace 23 minutos, kseremak dijo:

 

Call me strange but A model restrictions sounds like a ton of fun to operate as well in a computer game. Even if as real pilot i would appreciate i don't have to risk my life when flying D model firing from afar by radar, fire-and-forget Hellfires and having perfect GPS position all the time.

 

 

I agree with you, but overall I don't like this /not to touch/ atmosphere around Apache FCR. Soon it will be the most important Apache system in use in DCS. If ED have volountairly chosen to make such modern variant i expect they can make it in fairly realistic way with some documentation. Nobody forced ED to chose AH-64D. If i remember well many people here were speculating the /highly anticipated module/ is Apache but almost everyone was expecting AH-64A, stating Longbow is impossible and may be too calssified. Going back a few months in memory AH-64D announcment was quite a surprise for most people.

 

I have faith in ED team, i'm believe they know what they are doing, even more so after fantastic Mi-24 release, i love every second with this helicopter. Long live ED!

 

 

AH-64D is probably the aircraft with most documentation available of all modules ED has ever done, first, there is the operator manual, covering normal procedures, engine, cruise performance, weight and limitations, avionics, communications, weapon systems, countermeasures and navigation.

There are also multiple documents and flashcards complementary to that manual that give additional info on helicopter gunnery, aircrew interaction, etc.

There are performance charts for hellfires, including trajectories and time of flight, information on performance for rockets, gun.

Official Info about max on paper effective ranges of the longbow FCR and scan sizes.

Besides, there are lots of SMEs on the apache community in contact with ED to help them in non classified aspects of the aircraft.

As long as ED is capable to stick to the published info, there shouldn't be a reason to worry.

I would like an A model Apache too, but the Delta's are the ones everyone has hype for.

 

[kseremak]

2 hours ago, DaemonPhobos said:

I would like an A model Apache too, but the Delta's are the ones everyone has hype for.

 

I would prefer Desert Storm AH-64A as well, with it's limitations and semi-manual fire control, but i'll take any Apache ED will make, especially now seeing how satisfying Mi-24 is to fly.

 

DCS shouldn't be artificially balanced even if AH-64D would turn out be completely overwhelming decimating everything around from relatively save distance.

The only form of realistic balance should be simply by chosing proper timeframe variants like they have fought each other IRL.

Edited June 28, 2021 by kseremak

[G.J.S]

4 hours ago, Reticuli said:

I don't see how there's going to be gameplay balance with the existing helos if the DCS Apache gets the Longbow radar.

 

Welcome to warfare, nobody fights fair. This being a ‘combat simulation’ with modules depicting as realistically as they can be, if you want fair then you either employ what you have but in a limited capacity, or go realistic and hope you brought the biggest blade to a knife fight.

[shagrat]

4 hours ago, Reticuli said:

I don't see how there's going to be gameplay balance with the existing helos if the DCS Apache gets the Longbow radar.

 

That's because DCS is focused on simulation not gameplay. The mission designer/campaign creators can limit availability of weapons and set some limitations, but in general the modules work like their real world counterparts and not like balanced game assets.

Unlike popular depiction, even medieval warfare or the Napoleonic Wars etc. were not balanced or "chivalrous"...

[bies]

22 hours ago, DaemonPhobos said:

I would like an A model Apache too, but the Delta's are the ones everyone has hype for.

 

I would kill for AH-64A. It may be more suited for simulator gameplay when gunner had his hand full with searching targets using FLIR and cameras without the radar, going closer to the enemy, guiding laser Hellfires. Decimating hundreds of Saddam's tanks or repelling Soviet invasion in Europe. Maybe some day.

[Reticuli]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:32 AM, Raptor9 said:

 

DCS has never been about balance, it's been about realistic aircraft modelling within the parameters of legal simulation.  This has been a common critique in other aircraft threads, but it is based on the false premise that everyone wants to play head-to-head gameplay in DCS, which is not the case.  In fact it's been stated multiple times by ED in previous interviews that the majority of their player base plays single-player content, not competitive multiplayer.

 

Having said that, anyone that wants to restrict FCR use on a server or any mission simply needs to remove it from the warehouses of the map, like other servers that sometimes restrict munitions like AMRAAMs, R-27s, or JSOWs, etc.

 

I don't see how multiplayer vs single player has anything to do with it. 

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Reticuli said:

I don't see how multiplayer vs single player has anything to do with it. 

 

Well, let me broaden the discussion then, in order for me to understand the context of your previous post I was responding to.  To your mind, in what sense does the Apache's FCR impact "gameplay balance"?  What sort of balance are you looking for in DCS?  And how does the FCR upset such balance when compared to what?

[5ephir0th]

Maybe he expect that, on multiplayer, a Mig-15 can be a match for a Viper or something like that, for blance, you know...

[shagrat]

On 6/29/2021 at 7:59 PM, bies said:

 

I would kill for AH-64A. It may be more suited for simulator gameplay when gunner had his hand full with searching targets using FLIR and cameras without the radar, going closer to the enemy, guiding laser Hellfires. Decimating hundreds of Saddam's tanks or repelling Soviet invasion in Europe. Maybe some day.

If they model the Longbow in detail we should be able to remove the FCR-mast... So the best of both worlds!