Trimmer switch (!) and other stuff.

[Hippo]

After many years away, I thought I'd give the ka-50 a go.  A few observations / requests.

 

The ka-50 specific options for trim are not explained in the manual, they really should be.

 

When I use the trim switch (default option), there is always motion of the controls as the physical joystick recentres.  Would it be possible to have an option where:

 

push trim button - sets trimmed controls position.

keep holding trim button whilst allowing (physical) joystick to recentre - joystick inputs are ignored.

release trim button after (physical) joystick recentre - joystick input is read again.

 

(I can't believe I'm posting about trim all these years later).

 

Please could you provide the option to turn off the window and (especially) the shkval reflections?

 

The shkval tracking gate is now almost impossible to see, and the shkval display itself is very washed out (in a Quest 2).  This is all made worse by the faux-reflections.

 

In VR, the shadows from the rotors do not play well with ASW.  Is there a way to turn them off whilst keeping the "normal" cockpit shadows?

 

I am using the "Gauntlet" mission for testing and am seeing unexpected(?) wingman behaviour:

 

When I take off they remain on their pads, and do not respond to radio commands.  I fly off and eventually (but not always) they rejoin.  This is not as I remember, where they would always take off with me.  Has something changed?

Edited March 7, 2021 by Hippo

[Volk.]

10 hours ago, Hippo said:

push trim button - sets trimmed controls position.

keep holding trim button whilst allowing (physical) joystick to recentre - joystick inputs are ignored.

release trim button after (physical) joystick recentre - joystick input is read again.

Go to the main menu > options > special settings tab > Ka-50. Change the trimmer mode from default to central position. It does exactly that. Just check your physical hardware doesn't have large deadzones - or you might have issues with it releasing your controls.

 

10 hours ago, Hippo said:

When I take off they remain on their pads, and do not respond to radio commands.  I fly off and eventually (but not always) they rejoin.  This is not as I remember, where they would always take off with me.  Has something changed

The wingman AI has decayed some over the years. Currently they suck at attacking stuff. Generally I've found they do respond to commands (sort of) and do reply if able. Might be they're borked there. Did you change radio frequency and are the roughly in line-of-sight to get the radio commands?

[3WA]

I wouldn't call what the wingmen have "AI".

[Hippo]

11 hours ago, Volk. said:

Go to the main menu > options > special settings tab > Ka-50. Change the trimmer mode from default to central position. It does exactly that.

That's not what I'm seeing.  What I see is that the controls are set when the button is released.  I was asking for this to happen when the button is pressed, and for joystick inputs to then be ignored until the button is released.  TBH I'm not sure whether this would be a better system, but I think it could be.  I have tried the central position option, but this brings up other issues for me which I won't bore you with here.

 

Thanks for replying though.

 

With the wingmen it's not frequencies or anything like that, because they take off and start to respond after I've flown off for a few miles (but not always).  I agree that they are a lot less useful than they used to be.  For me this is a real problem as I fly single player and wanted to go do a bunch of campaigns.  From reading other posts, and from my limited recent experience it seems to me that I will be experiencing a load of issues, and it's just not going to be worth the bother.

[IronChancellor]

On 3/8/2021 at 4:32 AM, Hippo said:

That's not what I'm seeing.  What I see is that the controls are set when the button is released

That's how the trimmer works IRL. If you are not in Flight Director mode, holding down the trimmer disables the autopilot and then releasing it sets the trim. If you move the stick without holding down the trimmer button the autopilot will try to counteract your input to keep itself on course.

 

Now, ingame there is a delay that does exactly what you want: it ignores your joystick after you release the trimmer so that you can recenter it. The issue is that the delay is hard-coded AFAIK, and is not long enough for some joysticks.

[Hippo]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:09 PM, IronChancellor said:

 The issue is that the delay is hard-coded AFAIK, and is not long enough for some joysticks.

 

This I think is the cause of most of the issues, as I often get unwanted cyclic control "bounce" as the joystick recentres.  Hence my suggestion of removing this arbitrary delay and giving control of it to the player instead.  Your point re the AP being disabled is a good one, and I would suggest that it remain so until the button is released.

 

Thanks for replying.  Unfortunately I encountered so many other issues during a few hours of re-familiarising myself with the ka-50 that in the end I've had to give up on it.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hippo

[Munkwolf]

It would be nice to have a trimmer mode available like that, where it does the trim on release. I've been using the center mode Volk mentioned, and for me it's better than the default. But I do wish I could push the button, then move stick back to center, and then release the button for the trim to happen. Maybe even have it where the trim amount is based on the joystick movement while the button is pressed. So if I only move it halfway back to center then release, it'd trim half as much as it would've with the stock trim methods.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Monkwolf

[M1Combat]

It works great for me :).

 

I don't understand why it needs to be changed?

 

What is the actual problem you experience?

 

Are you pressing the trim and releasing it like a "click"?  Are you holding the trim while moving the controls, then releasing the trim?

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Monkwolf said:

It would be nice to have a trimmer mode available like that, where it does the trim on release. 

 

It does the trim on release in a real thing.

 

When you have AP channels enabled and you press TRIM button down, all the AP channels authority is disabled, magnetic force is released from the cyclic and only cyclic dampening is enabled. 

On the moment you release the TRIM button, AP channels registers the current aircraft attitude (pitch, roll, speed, altitude etc) and they get 20% authority to inputs to maintain those parameters that were registered, and the magnetic force is activated so it centers cyclic in the new position. 

 

The problem is that with a centering joystick, there is constant force to pull the joystick to center. So it gets tiring. 

The solution for that is that on the moment TRIM button is released, the Joystick inputs are not registered until joystick is re-centered (released to get back to center by spring force). Only after that does joystick input be registered again, and now your joystick movements from its centered position will move the helicopter virtual cyclic in its trimmed position. 

 

If the TRIM function would happen when Joystick TRIM button is pressed, you couldn't move joystick anywhere as each time you move joystick would be applied and only press would program the AP for the moment. Now if you would release joystick to center, you would be fighting against the programmed trimmed position. 

 

 

[Crocuta]

I usually disable the pitch autopilot before trimming. I've got all of the autopilot buttons bound and usually toggle some of them depending on what I want to do for a smooth flight.

[M1Combat]

"I usually disable the pitch autopilot before trimming."

 

I don't think it makes sense to do that.

 

 

[S. Low]

Keep your autopilot modes on, flight director off. Hold trim button while you gently position yourself to fly straight and level. Release trim button.

 

The AP modes help correct all the opposing forces of the whirlybird. Leave them on and get used to flying with them. I’m having to do the same.

[Frederf]

I see what Hippo is asking and it is an interesting idea.

 

Currently you have to pick between a time-blend on press or a control lockout until you hit the central window. This would be effectively a control lockout until trim button release. I don't know if I would use that system because I do quite a bit of control input with the button held.

 

One thing you might want to play with now is editing the blending time constant. In the lua files there is a "tau" time which affects how rapidly the old and new cyclic positions blend after trim event. If you feel that you always "bump" when pressing trim button you may have a better experience with a longer tau time.

[M1Combat]

@Relic

"Keep your autopilot modes on"

Except Alt...  It will kill you and I don't mean by running you into a mountain.  If you insist on Alt hold on...  then don't ever press trim with your blades over 11 degrees ;).  I recommend you just disable Alt Hold.  It will also try to kill you just after you hear "Warning - Under Attak..." by limiting your control authority to bug the eff out before taking a tank round to the face while hovering.

 

Also...  don't hover any more.  Never use auto-hover.  Manually trim to hover in a slow slip along the edge of a ridge.  Skilled tank gunners will still hit you.  Don't stay in one place.

 

If you're 1 MILLION PERCENT certain you're in a safe place...  then maybe use hover...  but I still recommend manual hover.

 

 

@Frederf

Trim release is when the magic happens.  Not press.

 

So your time blend would be after release, and the control lockout is also after release.  Not press.

 

The idea is to press, fly to desired attitude etc, release, let go of controls so they center.

[Frederf]

Hippo isn't discussing what is. He is discussing what he would like it to be.

[Sh4rk]

I understand what Hippo wants, but I think it's a bad idea.

 

The helo would drift on its own - as trimmed - until you moved the stick back to center before releasing the trimmer button.

I think this would make you need to correct (and overcorrect) as quickly as you could after moving the stick back to center, and releasing the button.

 

It'd be akin to using the "central trimmer mode" in a Force Feedback joystick (which is what the default mode is meant for). I've done that before (when using a FFB stick) and wondered what the hell was going on with the stick going limp until recentered.

 

The "center to regain control" mode is the best compromise for a spring-loaded, non-FFB stick. 

You just have to get used to remember where the stick is trimmed to, and quickly move it to that position, before pressing Trim Reset.

[Reticuli]

No helo in the world uses a spring-loaded centering joystick or a pressure stick and does manual trimmer & trim release by button.  Those are either long-pole cyclics or force-feedback sticks that use manual trimmer & trim release buttons.  All helos that had/have a joystick or pressure stick use one core method: rate-command / attitude-hold, and sometimes a few other flight law modes to choose from for wing-level hovering, IAS-command cruising, etc.  ED currently does not give the logical option of this RC/AH AFCS mode on its helos for users with centering joysticks or pressure sticks.  What they instead provide is the default mode that does the bounce after you manually release and set the trim until the stick is moved back to center where it's not attempting to add to the trim state any longer, a second newer mode that ignores the input after the trimmer button is released until the stick goes back to its center, and the newest trimmer mode which is no trimmer release/set by button at all and is intended for people with the springs completely removed from the previously-centering joystick, a professional long-pole cyclic with its own damping or trimmer-hold mechanism, or if you're using something like PPJoy & GlovePIE to control a dynamically-auto-trimming virtual joystick intermediary between your HOTAS & pedals and the sim... which is admittedly sort of complicated.  None of these three available helo trimmer options in DCS is currently both optimal and simple for joystick & pressure stick users, though.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Reticuli

[Stratos]

Excuse me, but I'm retuning to the Ka50 after a loooong hiatus. Instant Trimming as special option (I think is the default), so Should I press the trim button while moving the ciclic and release once I get in the desired attitude, right?

[Vital061270]

2 часа назад, Stratos сказал:

Excuse me, but I'm retuning to the Ka50 after a loooong hiatus. Instant Trimming as special option (I think is the default), so Should I press the trim button while moving the ciclic and release once I get in the desired attitude, right?

Clamp the trimmer - hold. Set a new course. Stabilize the helicopter and release the trimmer. 

Press - deploy - stabilize - release. 

[Hobel]

Am 8.3.2021 um 11:32 schrieb Hippo:

That's not what I'm seeing.  What I see is that the controls are set when the button is released.  I was asking for this to happen when the button is pressed, and for joystick inputs to then be ignored until the button is released. 

yep I would also very much welcome as an option!

[Stratos]

On 11/26/2024 at 9:54 PM, Vital061270 said:

Clamp the trimmer - hold. Set a new course. Stabilize the helicopter and release the trimmer. 

Press - deploy - stabilize - release. 

Fine! thanks.