F-14B AIM-7M not tracking to target

[falconxr8sonic]

Bug: AIM-7M not working unable to track to target on the F-14B, when PAL is engaged.

 

I can reproduce this 9/10 times.

 

Before the latest update the AIM-7M was working just fine.

 

May I ask is anyone else experiencing the same issue please?

 

DCS Version: Stable DCS 2.5.6.61527.3

 

System Specs:

CPU Intel i7 8th Gen 4Ghz

GPU Nvidia Geforce GTX, 4GB RAM

16GB RAM

SSD :256GB

OS: Win10

 

Joystick: Thrustmaster Tflight hotas one

 

 

[near_blind]

What were you shooting at? Right now ED is playing with how ECM interacts with missiles, and it's lead to some weirdness. If you shoot an AIM-7M or F at something that has an active jammer, the missile will go dumb because it doesn't have Home On Jam. Su-24s and Tu-22s have been the biggest offenders. The AIM-7MH has HOJ for what it's worth.

 

Also the AIM-7M's chaff resistance was changed to match ED's, so the AIM-7Ms ability to reject chaff has been halved.

Edited March 7, 2021 by near_blind

[falconxr8sonic]

Thanks for the reply, was shooting at TU-95, MIG-21, MIG-29, and SU-25.  From what you have described above, I tried removing the jamming pods on the SU-25 and I was able to get some hits (fired 6, 3 hits), but still not great, the AIM-7Ms are now like dead weights on the F-14B...

[dundun92]

2 hours ago, near_blind said:

AIM-7M or F at something that has an active jammer, the missile will go dumb because it doesn't have Home On Jam.

All the AIM-7s but the E have HOJ, at least the ED ones do per the .lua

[CheckGear]

Contact Raytheon Technologies. They might be able to assist.

 

[captain_dalan]

Only the 7M's give  you issues, or do the other variants as well, like the MH, F.....?

[falconxr8sonic]

6 hours ago, CheckGear said:

Contact Raytheon Technologies. They might be able to assist.

 

Hi CheckGear, I do have a colleague's older sister who works at Raytheon in Canberra Australia, might be time to give her a buzz

[falconxr8sonic]

4 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Only the 7M's give  you issues, or do the other variants as well, like the MH, F.....?

Hi Dalan, just tried the F-14A with the AIM-7F and it is unable to hit the TU-95s at around 4-5Nm (ACM cover off), so not as good as before the update.  The F-14B can only carry the AIM-7M at the moment, so I guess I'll just have to carry 4 AIM-9 and 4 AIM-54 for most of my missions if the AIM-7 is going to be useless against target with jammers....

[unknown]

Nice that i found this thread, i thought i have missed something because my AIM-7M just gone stupid after launch. So i tested agains a Su-24 and can confirm:

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M goes stupid as soon as it leaves the rail 

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 with ECM = off(advanced waypoint actions) -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24

- me replacing the F-14B with the F/A-18 shooting AIM-7M at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24 without the need to turn ECM = off in the advanced waypoint actions

 

So why does the AIM-7M work against jamming targets in the F-18 but the same missile does not work against the same target fired from an F-14B??? What is the difference? What am i missing?

F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF.trk F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk F18_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk

Edited March 8, 2021 by unknown

[falconxr8sonic]

1 hour ago, unknown said:

Nice that i found this thread, i thought i have missed something because my AIM-7M just gone stupid after launch. So i tested agains a Su-24 and can confirm:

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M goes stupid as soon as it leaves the rail 

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 with ECM = off(advanced waypoint actions) -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24

- me replacing the F-14B with the F/A-18 shooting AIM-7M at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24 without the need to turn ECM = off in the advanced waypoint actions

 

So why does the AIM-7M work against jamming targets in the F-18 but the same missile does not work against the same target fired from an F-14B??? What is the difference? What am i missing?

F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF.trk 245.85 kB · 1 download F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk 247.6 kB · 1 download F18_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk 367.84 kB · 1 download

 

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad that there are others who are having the same issue.  Hope ED will come up with some answers soon.

[TOViper]

 

On 3/8/2021 at 12:48 PM, unknown said:

Nice that i found this thread, i thought i have missed something because my AIM-7M just gone stupid after launch. So i tested agains a Su-24 and can confirm:

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M goes stupid as soon as it leaves the rail 

- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 with ECM = off(advanced waypoint actions) -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24

- me replacing the F-14B with the F/A-18 shooting AIM-7M at Su-24 -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24 without the need to turn ECM = off in the advanced waypoint actions

 

So why does the AIM-7M work against jamming targets in the F-18 but the same missile does not work against the same target fired from an F-14B??? What is the difference? What am i missing?

F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF.trk 245.85 kB · 13 downloads F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk 247.6 kB · 13 downloads F18_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_ON.trk 367.84 kB · 16 downloads

 

Hello unknown!

 

Unfortunately, when I play your track file "F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF.trk, the lock breaks after a few seconds, and right at this point the missile goes straight ahead (which I consider correct behaviour). The lost lock is also confirmed by Jester.

 

Maybe there is something wrong with playing TRK files. Can you provide a video of exactly what you stated above for the second flight ("- me in F-14B shooting AIM-7M(Jester STT lock, never loosing it) at Su-24 with ECM = off(advanced waypoint actions) -> my AIM-7M lofts, tracks and kills the Su-24")?

 

The other two TRK (flights) behave as you described.

 

Here is my mission, and my 2 tryouts, which work fine:

F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF_TOVipers_tryout.trk

F14B_AIM7M_SU24_ECM_OFF_TOVipers_tryout2.trk

 

 

I tried flying against TU-95 with ECM=ON as well.

The AIM-7M makes some pitch up and down after leaving the rail, then looses track (which someone could consider as correct behaviour I think):

F14B_AIM7M_Tu95_ECM_ON_TOVipers_tryout.trk

Edited April 12, 2021 by TOViper

[unknown]

Yeah, track is broken for me too now. It worked fine, wtached it before uploading it here.

 

Video 1 F-14B (should be 1440p after YT processing)

- start in ME with SU-24M selected to show there are no advanced waypoint settings

- AIM-7M goes dumb after launch

- back to ME and change the advanced waypoint settings to ECM=off

- SU-24M destroyed by AIM-7M

 

Video 2 F/A-18C (should be 1440p after YT processing)

- start in ME with SU-24M selected to show there are no advanced waypoint settings

- SU-24M destroyed by AIM-7M

 

 

So it works with the F/A-18C(and someone said also with the FC F-15C, never used that plane myself) but not with the F-14B(i did not test the A model).

[TOViper]

I did many test flights now, and one question came up: Why do the Tomcat's AIM-7M do not HOJ, while the F-18's do HOJ?

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by TOViper

[dundun92]

17 minutes ago, TOViper said:

I did many test flights now, and one question came up: Why do the Tomcat's AIM-7M do not HOJ, while the F-18's do HOJ?

 

 

If that is indeed the case it would be because they left it off in the lua. However, looking in the .lua, the F-14s AIM-7Ms do have HOJ enabled (note the HOJ =1 at the bottom). So IDK.

model			= "HB_F14_EXT_AIM-7",
        --Name = AIM_7, --AIM-7M
		display_name = _('AIM-7M'),
		--name = "AIM_7",
        mass = 230,
        Escort = 1,
        Head_Type = 6,
		sigma = {5.6, 5, 5.6},
        M = 231.1,
        H_max = 24400.0,
        H_min = 1.0,
        Diam = 203.0,
        Cx_pil = 2.21,
        D_max = 20000.0,
        D_min = 1500.0,
        Head_Form = 1,
        Life_Time = 90.0,
        Nr_max = 25,
        v_min = 140.0,
        v_mid = 500.0,
        Mach_max = 3.2,
        t_b = 0.0,
        t_acc = 3.3,
        t_marsh = 11.0,
        Range_max = 50000.0,
        H_min_t = 15.0,
        Fi_start = 0.4,
        Fi_rak = 3.14152,
        Fi_excort = 1.05,
        Fi_search = 0.1,
        OmViz_max = 0.35,
        warhead = warheads["AIM_7"],
        exhaust = {0.78, 0.78, 0.78, 0.3};
        X_back = -2.0,
        Y_back = -0.0,
        Z_back = 0.0, -- -0.1,
        Reflection = 0.0366,
        KillDistance = 12.0,
        ccm_k0 = 1.0,  -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)
		rad_correction = 0,
		hoj = 1,

------------

seeker = {
		delay					= 1.5,
		op_time					= 75,
		FOV						= math.rad(120),
		max_w_LOS				= math.rad(20),
		sens_near_dist			= 100,
		sens_far_dist			= 30000,
		ccm_k0					= 1.0,
		aim_sigma				= 5.5,
		height_error_k			= 100,
		height_error_max_vel	= 138,
		height_error_max_h		= 300,
		hoj						= 1,
	},

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by dundun92

[Nobody Special]

I haven't been able to hit anything with AIM-7M for quite a long time now. My typical test mission has MiG-27 targets - don't know if they have internal jammers (they are externally clean).

 

Still an issue in 2.7.

[raflucgr]

I concur, both the AIM-7F and AIM-7M go dumb the moment they are launched, regardless of whether you have a P-STT or PD-STT lock. To be honest, that's an annoying issue since it has been around for a few months now and as mentioned above, the same missiles appear to work just fine with the Hornet.

Edited April 15, 2021 by raflucgr

[Skysurfer]

2 hours ago, raflucgr said:

I concur, both the AIM-7F and AIM-7M go dumb the moment they are launched, regardless of whether you have a P-STT or PD-STT lock. To be honest, that's an annoying issue since it has been around for a few months now and as mentioned above, the same missiles appear to work just fine with the Hornet.

 

 

Yeah, sadly I have never been able to use AIM-7's on the Tomcat reliably as they are always broken one way or another. I think this time it has something to do with the HOJ and the latest changes ED made.

[unknown]

For everyone having trouble with the AIM-7F and -7M, try to replace them with -7MH, that one worked in one quick test against a Mig-29S while the -7M missed every time.

 

Btw, i didn't test the AIM-7M earlier because there was no default loadout(atleast i saw none) for the F-14B with that missile, would have tested that missile earlier if i didn't missed that.

[Golo]

39 minutes ago, unknown said:

For everyone having trouble with the AIM-7F and -7M, try to replace them with -7MH, that one worked in one quick test against a Mig-29S while the -7M missed every time.

Hmm too bad for us that likes to fly F-14A with AIM-7Fs and not the latest and greatest I guess.

[unknown]

20 minutes ago, Golo said:

Hmm too bad for us that likes to fly F-14A with AIM-7Fs and not the latest and greatest I guess.

For every serious F-14 module owner i guess this is a major problem. So not for me, i prefere helicopter and AG/SEAD missions, i only bought the F-14 to support HB because of the A-6AI with the intent for a FF module thing mentioned, but i like to take the F-14 for a ride from time to time.

I hope they(HB/ED) get it sorted out so every AIM-7F/M capable plane behaves the same(if there is no aircraft limitation) and not like it is now.

 

   

[Skysurfer]

OK, just did some tests and found out how to reproduce it. Both the 7F and M will not guide in either P-STT or PD-STT beyond 10nm. Once you are within 10nm, regrdless of mode they will guide no problem. Reproduceable 100% of the time and this is without ECM or chaff.

[UWBuRn]

Can somebody from HB say something about this? Strange behaviours from AIM-7s have been around for months...

[Skysurfer]

Yeah, you can clearly see what's wrong after like 15 minutes of tests shots in a 1v1 online. It really seems to be the range witht he F and M as I described above.

[Banzaiib]

bu-dump-bump

did some testing myself, as well. AIM-7MH seems to track fine in the tomcat on a MP server. The other two (F & M), go stupid right off the rail.

[Skysurfer]

1 minute ago, Banzaiib said:

bu-dump-bump

did some testing myself, as well. AIM-7MH seems to track fine in the tomcat on a MP server. The other two (F & M), go stupid right off the rail.

 

Yup, no issues with the MH, the M and F will not guide if fired >10nm. Within 10 they seem to work just fine however.