Harriers, and more Harriers...?

[rkk01]

I don’t have the DCS Harrier module... have came close to buying in many of the sales, but haven’t yet pressed “go”

 

I guess one issue, for me, is the model available... it could pass for an RAF GR5-9 and I see there are UK skins in the library

 

But, my current read pulls no punches in it’s verdict on the GR5, rating the Sea Harrier FA2 as a much better aircraft... and also relates successful FRS1 ACM sorties against USAF F5-Es and F15s..!

 

How does the DCS Harrier hold up against the DCS F5 and FC/DCS F15...???

 

I’d like to think Razbam would get the FRS1 into DCS at some stage, but if doesn’t seem very likely in the short term...

 

Anyone else fancy an expanded Harrier fleet?

[Mars Exulte]

2 hours ago, rkk01 said:

I don’t have the DCS Harrier module... have came close to buying in many of the sales, but haven’t yet pressed “go”

  It's pretty fun, think of it as an A-10 ''fast mover'' spinoff.

 

2 hours ago, rkk01 said:

I guess one issue, for me, is the model available... it could pass for an RAF GR5-9 and I see there are UK skins in the library

 

But, my current read pulls no punches in it’s verdict on the GR5, rating the Sea Harrier FA2 as a much better aircraft... and also relates successful FRS1 ACM sorties against USAF F5-Es and F15s..!

    Can't speak to much to all the variants of Harrier, of which there are many, but the AV-8B is first and foremost an attacker. It can defend itself, and is more successful at dogfighting than a A-10 will be generally, but it's not really designed for it either.

 

2 hours ago, rkk01 said:

How does the DCS Harrier hold up against the DCS F5 and FC/DCS F15...???

    About as well as you'd expect. It's probably superior across the board to the F-5 in T/W and overall maneuverability, generally inferior to the F-15 in virtually all categories. It's not a dogfighter. None of the Harriers are, afaik, although some had radar and BVR capability, they are primarily attackers. They did well against Argentina, flying against 3rd gen aircraft with heaters and no countermeasures, but that's not saying THAT much. Against modern 4th gen, air superiority fighters, it can expect to be obliterated unless it gets the drop ob somebody or they get fooled by viffing. According to most accounts I've heard, viffing usually works exactly once against an inexperienced pilot. Also, viffing will often get the Harrier killed if he is unable to immediately capitalise on it (low speed and low maneuverability = dead). It's not an air superiority fighter, though it has been pressed into that role, it should not be expected to perform to a stellar capacity.

 

2 hours ago, rkk01 said:

I’d like to think Razbam would get the FRS1 into DCS at some stage, but if doesn’t seem very likely in the short term...

 

Anyone else fancy an expanded Harrier fleet?

  They're supposedly intending to do a Sea Harrier variant eventually to go with the Falklands map they're working on.

[Beirut]

I love my Harrier! It's hands on with the VTOL, interesting to fly, and carries a solid low-tech and high-tech punch for A2G. The cockpit gives excellent visibility and the night lighting is first rate. It's slow, it's fast, it hovers, it lands on ships, It's just a helluva lotta fun. 

 

If I only had one plane to fly in DCS, it would be hard not to choose the Harrier. The Hornet would be #2.

[Evoman]

Have you even taken the current AV-8B for a test flight when ever ED has had the free to fly events? In my brief time with it in free to fly event I found it too much of a work load to just get it up and running and to take off. After that I was kinda disappointed that it really was not as fast as I thought it was.

 

The only other Harrier variant in the pipeline is the British Sea Harrier FRS.1 for use in the upcoming Falklands map.

 

By the way here is the latest update regarding the south Atlantic map.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Evoman

[rkk01]

5 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  It's pretty fun, think of it as an A-10 ''fast mover'' spinoff.

 

    Can't speak to much to all the variants of Harrier, of which there are many, but the AV-8B is first and foremost an attacker. It can defend itself, and is more successful at dogfighting than a A-10 will be generally, but it's not really designed for it either.

 

    About as well as you'd expect. It's probably superior across the board to the F-5 in T/W and overall maneuverability, generally inferior to the F-15 in virtually all categories. It's not a dogfighter. None of the Harriers are, afaik, although some had radar and BVR capability, they are primarily attackers. They did well against Argentina, flying against 3rd gen aircraft with heaters and no countermeasures, but that's not saying THAT much. Against modern 4th gen, air superiority fighters, it can expect to be obliterated unless it gets the drop ob somebody or they get fooled by viffing. According to most accounts I've heard, viffing usually works exactly once against an inexperienced pilot. Also, viffing will often get the Harrier killed if he is unable to immediately capitalise on it (low speed and low maneuverability = dead). It's not an air superiority fighter, though it has been pressed into that role, it should not be expected to perform to a stellar capacity.

 

  They're supposedly intending to do a Sea Harrier variant eventually to go with the Falklands map they're working on.

I guess that’s that’s the point of my post... The USMC and RAF Harriers were / are attack aircraft - whereas the RN Sea Harriers were primarily fleet air defence.

 

I was quite taken aback by a 27:10 1v1 kill ratio against USAF Aggressors and 7:1 2v2 kill ratio against an operational F15 unit...!

The description of how the nozzles were used in these engagements is also different to how I have previously seen viffing described or drawn (normally as a extra lateral or vertical displacement in form of rolling scissors). In the book description more emphasis is placed on the vertical fight and using the altitude gain to regain lost energy - and on 30 degree vectoring of the nozzles to hide the heat plume from the opponents seeker head.

 

The author’s low opinion of the GR5 / Harrier II family seems to be closely linked to the lack of A2A capability, compared to the Sea Harrier FA2 which carried the radar and avionics for AMRAAM / Sidewinder / 2x 30mm Aden cannon pods

[Northstar98]

I personally am much more interested in UK Harriers - particularly generation 1 and I don't really care which (preferences are an FRS.1 and GR.3).

 

The only generation II Harriers I'm interested in are the GR.5/GR.5A c. late 80s/very early 90s.

 

Harriers starting with a GR. are primarily attack aircraft (GR stands for Ground Attack & Reconnaissance), the FRS.1, FA.2 and AV-8B Harrier II+ are much more suited to fighting other aircraft.

[Evoman]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:39 PM, rkk01 said:

I don’t have the DCS Harrier module... have came close to buying in many of the sales, but haven’t yet pressed “go”

 

I guess one issue, for me, is the model available... it could pass for an RAF GR5-9 and I see there are UK skins in the library

 

But, my current read pulls no punches in it’s verdict on the GR5, rating the Sea Harrier FA2 as a much better aircraft... and also relates successful FRS1 ACM sorties against USAF F5-Es and F15s..!

 

How does the DCS Harrier hold up against the DCS F5 and FC/DCS F15...???

 

I’d like to think Razbam would get the FRS1 into DCS at some stage, but if doesn’t seem very likely in the short term...

 

Anyone else fancy an expanded Harrier fleet?

I had read a reply from RAZBAM on their Facebook page a few months ago stating that the AMX, EE Lightning and Sea Harrier can be expected after the F-15, Mig23 and Super Tucano.

[G.J.S]

Get the Harrier . . . You won’t regret it.

Edited March 11, 2021 by garyscott

[statrekmike]

I would love more Harrier versions but I would much rather our current Harrier module get polished to a point where it more closely matches up with the quality/realism levels of other modules we have. Right now, it isn't really there. 

 

  If anything. I would like another (proven and able) third party to eventually take a jab at doing a Harrier. I have long since stopped waiting for the one I already bought to be at a quality level that one should reasonably expect based on other modules we have.

[rkk01]

I suspect (hope...!) that next the next Harrier is from the same developer - in the shape of the FRS1

[Kev2go]

On 3/8/2021 at 3:13 AM, rkk01 said:

I guess that’s that’s the point of my post... The USMC and RAF Harriers were / are attack aircraft - whereas the RN Sea Harriers were primarily fleet air defence.

 

I was quite taken aback by a 27:10 1v1 kill ratio against USAF Aggressors and 7:1 2v2 kill ratio against an operational F15 unit...!

The description of how the nozzles were used in these engagements is also different to how I have previously seen viffing described or drawn (normally as a extra lateral or vertical displacement in form of rolling scissors). In the book description more emphasis is placed on the vertical fight and using the altitude gain to regain lost energy - and on 30 degree vectoring of the nozzles to hide the heat plume from the opponents seeker head.

 

The author’s low opinion of the GR5 / Harrier II family seems to be closely linked to the lack of A2A capability, compared to the Sea Harrier FA2 which carried the radar and avionics for AMRAAM / Sidewinder / 2x 30mm Aden cannon pods

 

 

You could still use a Av8B +  as a poorman's fleet defense fighter as it has AGP65 radar, and can use Aim120's ( If i remember back in the day razbam promised they would do that variant after Av8b NA but had to wait for ED do finish thier A/G code) 

 

 In fact some of the export users do in fact use at such, since Spain and Italy have amraams on thier Av8B+ harriers before the usmc did. Overall th whole Av8B plus program was born out of a requirement for such foreign operators to have some fleet defence capability, a joint program with the US.  Although the USMC dont havesuch a requirement and don't need to use it for such a role they  themselves eventually followed suit and integrated Aim120's on thier Av8B+ in 2011.

 

 

Honestly I think most only want the FA2 harrier for nostalgia reasons, AS overall the Av8B+ would have more modern avionics suite and more flexible. Besides it is more cost effective for Razbam to do this variant first as they promised at one point since they can essentially reuse many of the avionics/software and the 3d cockpit model  of the av8b NA for the av8b+ versus developing an entirely new harrier from scratch.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kev2go

[rkk01]

1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

 

 

You could still use a Av8B +  as a poorman's fleet defense fighter as it has AGP65 radar, and can use Aim120's ( If i remember back in the day razbam promised they would do that variant after Av8b NA but had to wait for ED do finish thier A/G code) 

 

 In fact some of the export users do in fact use at such, since Spain and Italy have amraams on thier Av8B+ harriers before the usmc did. Overall th whole Av8B plus program was born out of a requirement for such foreign operators to have some fleet defence capability, a joint program with the US.  Although the USMC dont havesuch a requirement and don't need to use it for such a role they  themselves eventually followed suit and integrated Aim120's on thier Av8B+ in 2011.

 

 

Honestly I think most only want the FA2 harrier for nostalgia reasons, AS overall the Av8B+ would have more modern avionics suite and more flexible. Besides it is more cost effective for Razbam to do this variant first as they promised at one point since they can essentially reuse many of the avionics/software and the 3d cockpit model  of the av8b NA for the av8b+ versus developing an entirely new harrier from scratch.

 

 

That’s all very well, but still requires Razbam to either add the AV-8B Plus to the Night Attack module, of develop a new module for the plus...

 

From what I’ve seen on DCS or on reference websites, the NA is not radar / AIM120 equipped??? (Bonkers!)

[Northstar98]

11 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

From what I’ve seen on DCS or on reference websites, the NA is not radar / AIM120 equipped??? (Bonkers!)

 

Not really, it's first and foremost a ground attack aircraft, which the majority of harrier versions were. The RADAR equipped harriers don't have ARBS/LRMTS, which is more useful for ground attack (though the GR.1/GR.1A/AV-8A/AV-8C had neither).

 

The only ones with AMRAAM capability are the AV-8B Harrier II+ and the Sea Harrier FA.2 AFAIK (which looks quite silly on the ADEN hardpoints).

[Kev2go]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Not really, it's first and foremost a ground attack aircraft, which the majority of harrier versions were. The RADAR equipped harriers don't have ARBS/LRMTS, which is more useful for ground attack (though the GR.1/GR.1A/AV-8A/AV-8C had neither).

 

The only ones with AMRAAM capability are the AV-8B Harrier II+ and the Sea Harrier FA.2 AFAIK (which looks quite silly on the ADEN hardpoints).

 

Most of the USMC harriers remaining in use today are AV8B+ version.  The ARBS can be considered redundant after the Litening 2 TGP was integrated. Plus the Radar offers greater flexibility and compliments the TGP nicely for surface/sea strike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kev2go