generic controls profile for helicopters and airplanes

[upyr1]

generic controls profile for helicopters and airplanes, which will set things like basic flight controls which would either be universal or very common for the differnt aircraft. This way we could have one place to configure at least the most common controls.

Edited March 13, 2021 by upyr1

[Rudel_chw]

The variety of input devices (throttles, sticks, rudders) makes a generic profile kind of impossible

[upyr1]

24 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

The variety of input devices (throttles, sticks, rudders) makes a generic profile kind of impossible

I'm not asking for a generic profile for input devices, I'm asking for a generic profile for air planes and helicopters since they have the same basic controls.  This way we have one place to set yaw, pitch, roll, and throttle and other controls and it will be set for all the modules. 

[Rudel_chw]

17 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I'm not asking for a generic profile for input devices, I'm asking for a generic profile for air planes and helicopters since they have the same basic controls.  This way we have one place to set yaw, pitch, roll, and throttle and other controls and it will be set for all the modules. 

 

Oh .. ok, now I see what you suggest .. very handy if you upgrade your Hotas or rudder for an upgraded version.

[upyr1]

10 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Oh .. ok, now I see what you suggest .. very handy if you upgrade your Hotas or rudder for an upgraded version.

it would also be handy when you get a new module too.  That is probably one of my biggest complaints with DCS is you have to map each module individually even though some controls are universal. 

[Kirk66]

Been thinking about this myself. This could be tied to your current hardware setup, and allow preconfiguring all the "standard" controls and axes so that a new module could be flown right away. Perhaps we should propose a list of common, standard controls to be part of this? For example (just off the top of my head):

 

Input devices: Warthog stick/F-16 grip, Warthog throttle, TPR rudders

 

Axes: Pitch, Roll, Yaw, Brakes, Throttles, Prop pitch

 

Buttons: Trim (pitch, roll, yaw), speed brakes, comms, TDC, gear, flaps.

 

Additional personal preference "common" controls for zoom, VR reset, views, modifiers, etc.

 

There are already generic controls (service controls, VR, modifiers) that apply to all modules; perhaps put common control in that list? Say add a check box to each control to add it to the "Common" controls so it carries across all modules - and if you want it to be unique (curves, perhaps) then uncheck the box?

 

Vulture

Edited March 13, 2021 by Kirk66
completeness

[SharpeXB]

Really there are so many control functions that it’s rather infeasible to have a generic preset. Yes there’s basic stuff like pitch, roll, yaw & throttle but those are easily set up. All the rest of it is custom per aircraft. There’s a Save and Load profile function which I think could do that but I’ve not experimented with it. 

[randomTOTEN]

No thank you.

Quote

That is probably one of my biggest complaints with DCS is you have to map each module individually even though some controls are universal. 

I think this is one of the strongest features of DCS. Perhaps your wishlist can exist as a wizzard to overlay the current interface, but I see this as a downgrade.

Edited March 13, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[upyr1]

33 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

No thank you.

I think this is one of the strongest features of DCS. Perhaps your wishlist can exist as a wizzard to overlay the current interface, but I see this as a downgrade.

 

So why do you think remapping the stick, rudder and throttle for every module is a feature?  I'm not asking to get rid of the menu to map the controls for each plane, just for a default or generic profile which will allow us to set up the most common controls which will then populate the aircraft profiles. The stick on an I-16 and an F-16 do the same thing so there is no reason for me  to map that 15 times. 

[randomTOTEN]

Just now, upyr1 said:

So why do you think remapping the stick, rudder and throttle for every module is a feature?

Because every other sim has to have all kinds of silly workarounds because they lack it. Module provided custom input programs, users running multiple hardware profiles. The DCS system eliminates all the conflicts that make all that extra work necessary. Every aircraft is completely different, every hardware device is completely different. The specific profiles can be saved as files for backup and future use. It detects hardware changes and applies the saved profile automatically. Beautiful.

 

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

just for a default or generic profile which will allow us to set up the most common controls which will then populate the aircraft profiles.

It already exists in DCS, and most people with any experience don't like it. It treats all hardware as a joystick, and assigns basic flight controls to your throttle and rudder pedals. The first thing I do when I get a new module is delete the default/generic profile. Its fine for it's purpose (brand new people with a single joystick), but you quickly move beyond.

 

11 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The stick on an I-16 and an F-16 do the same thing

No they don't. Excellent example btw. The sticks are physically different. The control actuation is different (cable vs force sensing). The locations in the cockpit are different. The physical deflections are different. I have different profiles for "the most common controls" for each of them. DCS keeps them nice and separate. No worries. Beautiful.

 

15 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

there is no reason for me  to map that 15 times. 

It takes...what... 1 minute to assign the "most common controls" for a module? Is this really such a burden for you? I think you don't realize how much of a burden you'll have when you get to enjoy control conflicts across multiple modules.

 

No thanks.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Really there are so many control functions that it’s rather infeasible to have a generic preset. Yes there’s basic stuff like pitch, roll, yaw & throttle but those are easily set up.

 

 

It would be even easier if we had a default profile where we had to set it up once and have it auto populate each module. Which is what I am asking for. Flight controls are universal, then there are controls like TDC slew which aren't universal but are really common.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

 

 

 

All the rest of it is custom per aircraft. There’s a Save and Load profile function which I think could do that but I’ve not experimented with it. 

These functions wouldn't be populated with the default profile.  The idea isn't to set up a profile that would enable you to fight with any plane or helicopter just to fly. 

[Buzzles]

7 hours ago, upyr1 said:

generic controls profile for helicopters and airplanes, which will set things like basic flight controls which would either be universal or very common for the differnt aircraft. This way we could have one place to configure at least the most common controls.

 

How would that work for curves/deadzones etc? I have different ones depending on the module.

The current way supports that pretty painlessly.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Buzzles

[upyr1]

6 minutes ago, Buzzles said:

How would that work for curves/deadzones etc? I have different ones depending on the module.

The current way supports that pretty painlessly.

 

The existing menu will be there we would just have a profile called default air plane or default helicopter where we would set up universal things like flight controls and really common systems. If we want to customize each module we would still be able to do that 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

It would be even easier if we had a default profile where we had to set it up once and have it auto populate each module.

There’s a “Save Profile” and “Load Profile” function but it doesn’t seem to work like I figured it would. Maybe I’m missing something but that’s what I thought it did. I thought it would allow you to do what you’re asking, load the settlings from one module into another. It may be particular to each controller. I haven’t experimented that much with it. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

 41 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

So why do you think remapping the stick, rudder and throttle for every module is a feature?

 

Because every other sim has to have all kinds of silly workarounds because they lack it. Module provided custom input programs, users running multiple hardware profiles. The DCS system eliminates all the conflicts that make all that extra work necessary. Every aircraft is completely different, every hardware device is completely different. The specific profiles can be saved as files for backup and future use. It detects hardware changes and applies the saved profile automatically. Beautiful.

 

Quote

 

 

Quote

 41 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

just for a default or generic profile which will allow us to set up the most common controls which will then populate the aircraft profiles.

It already exists in DCS, and most people with any experience don't like it. It treats all hardware as a joystick, and assigns basic flight controls to your throttle and rudder pedals. The first thing I do when I get a new module is delete the default/generic profile. Its fine for it's purpose (brand new people with a single joystick), but you quickly move beyond.

Dcs doesn't have what I am talking about. I am taking about a profile in the controls menu where we set default controls. So that if someone gets a new hotas they can set up the stick, rudder, throttle trim and other thins that are either universal or at least very common.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 41 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The stick on an I-16 and an F-16 do the same thing

No they don't. Excellent example btw. The sticks are physically different. The control actuation is different (cable vs force sensing). The locations in the cockpit are different. The physical deflections are different. I have different profiles for "the most common controls" for each of them. DCS keeps them nice and separate. No worries. Beautiful.

From the perspective of the ground crews they are different but if you are controlling your plane's pitch yaw and roll you move the stick and rudder the same way. I can't think of a single plane where the peddles control the pitch roll and throttle. While trying to set up a default profile for every device may be out of the question. 

 

Quote

 

It takes...what... 1 minute to assign the "most common controls" for a module? Is this really such a burden for you? I think you don't realize how much of a burden you'll have when you get to enjoy control conflicts across multiple modules.

 

No thanks.

The controls are already a mess.  I fail to see how a controls profile called airplane or helicopter where we can seting the default pitch yaw and roll for our controllers will make things worse. The idea is to set the most common controls using a couple of profiles to set the default primary flight controls 

[upyr1]

7 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Been thinking about this myself. This could be tied to your current hardware setup, and allow preconfiguring all the "standard" controls and axes so that a new module could be flown right away. Perhaps we should propose a list of common, standard controls to be part of this? For example (just off the top of my head):

 

Input devices: Warthog stick/F-16 grip, Warthog throttle, TPR rudders

 

Axes: Pitch, Roll, Yaw, Brakes, Throttles, Prop pitch

 

Buttons: Trim (pitch, roll, yaw), speed brakes, comms, TDC, gear, flaps.

 

Additional personal preference "common" controls for zoom, VR reset, views, modifiers, etc.

 

There are already generic controls (service controls, VR, modifiers) that apply to all modules; perhaps put common control in that list? Say add a check box to each control to add it to the "Common" controls so it carries across all modules - and if you want it to be unique (curves, perhaps) then uncheck the box?

 

Vulture

 

I don't know how much overhead that would take but the minimum I am asking for is a profile called airplane and one called helicopter that will set the most common controls. So if it does nothing but set the primary flight controls then it will be fine.

[randomTOTEN]

57 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

So that if someone gets a new hotas they can set up the stick, rudder, throttle trim and other thins that are either universal or at least very common.

They don't even have to do that right now. What you're asking for is pretty much already a feature. When you plug in a joystick, DCS automatically does what you ask. It assigns pitch and roll axis, POV, and I believe the trigger. Automatically with no input from the user. Or something along those lines.

If DCS detects the device is a TM Warthog HOTAS, and the module has a profile, your entire HOTAS will be automatically bound with ED decided controls. No user input required.

 

Now the control schemes are still separate, it's just a copy paste for each module. But I'm telling you having common bindings is no fun. You don't want it.

 

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

but if you are controlling your plane's pitch yaw and roll you move the stick and rudder the same way.

I just told you with several examples they are not the same from the pilot's perspective. I have different saturation for the I-16 and F-16. There can be no common control binding for both of them, or it would just be inferior.

 

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

The idea is to set the most common controls using a couple of profiles to set the default primary flight controls 

It so much easier to just spend a couple minutes binding the controls the way you want them, with what works with the airplane in question, and the controllers you have available. Once it's done you don't really think about it again.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

They don't even have to do that right now. What you're asking for is pretty much already a feature. When you plug in a joystick, DCS automatically does what you ask. It assigns pitch and roll axis, POV, and I believe the trigger. Automatically with no input from the user. Or something along those lines.

If DCS detects the device is a TM Warthog HOTAS, and the module has a profile, your entire HOTAS will be automatically bound with ED decided controls. No user input required.

Right now it will give insane assignments for rudder peddles and throttles- which is the problem I want to fix. for example my rudder defaults to the throttle, while my toe breaks default to pitch and roll. that's the problem and I figure the best way to do that would be to have a default profile and a wizard like you suggested to act as a default profile. 

Quote

but if you are controlling your plane's pitch yaw and roll you move the stick and rudder the same way.

 

Now the control schemes are still separate, it's just a copy paste for each module. But I'm telling you having common bindings is no fun. You don't want it.

 

I just told you with several examples they are not the same from the pilot's perspective. I have different saturation for the I-16 and F-16. There can be no common control binding for both of them, or it would just be inferior.

 

It so much easier to just spend a couple minutes binding the controls the way you want them, with what works with the airplane in question, and the controllers you have available. Once it's done you don't really think about it again.

I keep saying I don't want to toss out the ability to configure things for each plane, I just simply  have simply been advocating adding a profile called default airplane and default helicopter which will list the most common controls, which we can change default assignments and settings. You would still be able to change the the settings for each individual module. This is why I keep saying that  the stick, rudder and throttle all do the same basic things.  bringing up sensitivity or what ever else doesn't change that fact. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by upyr1

[randomTOTEN]

30 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

for example my rudder defaults to the throttle, while my toe breaks default to pitch and roll.

because DCS sees it as a joystick, and assigns it default flight controls

Edited March 14, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[upyr1]

15 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

because DCS sees it as a joystick, and assigns it default flight controls

 

I know that which is why I want a user configurable default helicopter and airplane profiles added to the controls menu. As it would be easier than trying to add profiles for every possible controller and it will prevent this from happening. As I said earlier I don't want other aspects of the controls menu to change. So why would adding this be a downgrade? 

Edited March 14, 2021 by upyr1

[upyr1]

On 3/13/2021 at 9:55 AM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Oh .. ok, now I see what you suggest .. very handy if you upgrade your Hotas or rudder for an upgraded version.

We do have the option to set some axis on the general profile with controllers, but they are quite limited so those saying the idea is a down grade compared to what DCS has now need to understand that most of what I am asking for is in place. So all that will change is that you will be able to set the TDC, trim, toe brakes, second throttle and other common commands that are missing from this, next we'd have a similar profile for helicopters a button to up date all profiles  

 

 

and as Random suggested here a wizard to set everything up.

On 3/13/2021 at 1:24 PM, randomTOTEN said:

No thank you.

I think this is one of the strongest features of DCS. Perhaps your wishlist can exist as a wizzard to overlay the current interface, but I see this as a downgrade.

 

 

[GregP]

JoystickProfiler may be exactly what you're looking for: https://github.com/Holdi601/JoystickProfiler

GR did a nice overview video on it recently:

[upyr1]

11 minutes ago, GregP said:

JoystickProfiler may be exactly what you're looking for: https://github.com/Holdi601/JoystickProfiler

GR did a nice overview video on it recently:

I have seen that one it's a nice app.