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Being Locked on and locking on.


Justin1Ntime

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Hi, I have two questions. I know its because I am missing some fundamental about how locking works. 

1. I created some missions with some Russian SU jets. I keep getting shot down but regardless of who in engage I never get a lock on warring at all. Just a missile in my face from a SU. I can fire a AAMRAM or a AIM and turn away and use counter measures which typically will hit one of the two I fire at and typically survive but I never can tell if they have even fired when I make a 90 and head a different direction. I think I keep getting hit by a 27ET missile. I have them set on Rookie. Is there any way to tell they have fired a missile so I dont waist half my countermeasures if they haven't sent a missle my way? Or maybe this is the way its supposed to be. 

2. When locking on. I am 40 some miles away then they just disappear after a few minutes and I cant see them at all via radar any more. I have to get close and use sidewinders (assuming I don't get hit by a missile that they fired and didn't know was coming). Some times if I toggle TWS and RWS it will refresh and I can see them again, sometimes I can cycle targets and find them again, but many times they are just gone. My wing man is calling them out so he must still be able to see them. Am I doing something wrong here as it does not seem to happen all the time but enough times I have costed the Navy quite a few F18s. 

 

Thanks for the help

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1. You don't get any warning from the system because the R-27ET is infrared guided. That means you might not get a radar lock warning at all and also means that the countermeasure of choice should be a flare, not chaff. The best way to know they fired one of those nasty things at you is looking at them, pretty much. The white smoke trail is kinda noticable, but the fact that if you don't see that, you are unlikely to know it's on the way is what makes that missile dangerous.

If you would prefer to practice your engagements without these for the time being, I'd suggest editing your enemies' loadouts accordingly. The R-27(E)R is radar guided and thus gives you an RWR lock warning.

 

2. A bit hard to tell, there could be a few reasons for that. 40 miles is quite a long range, I'd say. Are you sure the contacts are gone and not moved up to the top of the screen (the pit), indicating your radar just can't range them anymore due to jamming? It might also be your target maneuvered in a way that makes you lose them (see notching) and your wingman might just happen to see them still.

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As far as 2 - I find the F18 loses lock off and on so you need to keep on top of that. If your attack radar is not showing a mark for where the enemy aircraft is it could be several things but quick food for thought (1) Interpreting the attack radar requires a little getting used and 2) The radar is not from the ground to infinite altitude and 180 degrees width. It is like a cone and the plane is at the smallest part of that cone. The further away from you it goes the cone gets higher and wider. This means that as an airplane gets closer it is possible for them to be outside the area the radar beam is actually scanning depending on your altitude and theirs. When looking at the attack radar, specifically the cursor, there will be two numbers above and below it and these will represent the bottom and upper altitude (in thousands of feet) the radar is scanning. You might need to slew the radar.

Hope this helps get you on the right track. Good luck and happy flying!

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Thanks guys, Yeah I was familiar with the cone. I watched enough youtube that that is burned into my brain. I think I need to pay attention more my alt vs theirs. I noticed one time I was super low. Thanks for the tip Oozler. As far as Kang you are right. About the time I see the white smoke I am in full on panic mode wandering why isnt this thing in alarm. Now i know and that makes sense I am going to change their loadout.

How is everybody acquiring targets again? So I avoid the first fired missile by killing the first Jet then turning and using counter measures but many times I get killed just trying to find where the 2nd guy went. I cant even find my wing man again most of the time. Do you just put yourself into a turn and keep looking at radar? Or are you looking around more for a visual targets. It seems when I am going up against 2 I kill the first guy and lose sight of the second guy. Then my wing man starts firing and I have no idea where they are at. The only way I can find them is to push F10 (which seems to take to long) and the second bad guys missile seems to find me during that time 🙂. I cant figure out how to find the second bad guy or even my wing man after the fighting starts. Glad he wasn't relying on me to save his bacon 🙂

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Once you get to the point where missiles start flying, you're better off looking outside the cockpit. Many a times I've found myself fixated on the radar trying to locate a bandit when looking outside would've shown he already fired at me. If you can't reacquire the contact within a reasonable window, you're better off extending or defending, because more than likely they're still tracking you. The amount of time that window should be is completely situational.


Edited by Tholozor
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REAPER 51 | Tholozor
VFA-136 (c.2007): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305981/
Arleigh Burke Destroyer Pack (2020): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313752/

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As far as keeping track of your wingman having your data link on and having access to your SA page will help. This sounds like 2 v 2. As I am sure you have heard lose sight lose the fight, but initially we are talking BVR prior to the merge so in this case lose SA lose the fight. Assume JHMCS on. I will use RWS/TWS outside 40 but once I get inside 40 I am prone to switch to boresight radar mode, and then in to long range mode which goes out to 40.  As an aside, remember higher and faster you are further you potentially can reach out and touch someone. However, I will fire (again lets assume AIM120) when I have a good solution but I will keep scanning between the two bandits. I want to keep my eye on where that wingman is going to go but also touch base on if my missile is going to be successful. Getting efficient at unlocking and reacquiring the next bandit is key to success. There are many potential situations and ways to resolve the task at hand but this is one way I like. Now.... In order to facilitate your own situational awareness while you are getting the hang of BFM/ACM there is no shame in having labels on to be better able to see what's what. Once you get yourself "trained" up on maintaining SA turn them off.

Now go forth and kick some ass! 🙂


Edited by Oozler
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All great advice guys appreciate the response. Going to turn labels back on and practice some more. I think I am relying on my TWS radar WAY WAY too much and your right Tholozor I need to practice target acquisition by looking around more when in combat. I am going to get rid of the bad guys AMMO and increase their fuel so I can practice targeting them without dying. Oozler do you ever use the Helmet Acq Mode? That seems like it would be easier initially than trying to line everything up in the heads up display. While in order to fire my AIMs I need to use boresight on the HUD as my AIMs cannot make that kind of a turn If I am looking to the left, right, up, down.  it seems like if I lose track using the helmet would simplify finding them being the radar follows my helmet right?

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Make sure you are extremely familiar with the cone, how to move it and shape it to find the targets initially and then how to concentrate the cone in the area of the targets so you done loose them again.


Main things to know are, how to change the Elevation bar settings and what effect that has.  How to adjust the radar elevation using elevation control, how to adjust elevation using the TDC, how to use Azimuth width selection to find targets and to then track them.

 

You should be able to see a fighter size aircraft at 40nm to 80nm in idea conditions, once you get a hit on the radar, you need to make a mental note of its altitude that shows on your radar, then you can narrow the elevation of the cone to search only the rough elevation of the target, and then also move the Azimuth to search that piece of sky too.

 

Took me a little while to get use to the F18 radar, one thing that you need to check is when you put the radar on by default, it is often pointing down at the ground....and you will see NOTHING unless you know how to set the elevation.

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Yes, I definitely use the JHMCS whenever I have it available, which is almost always, except for things like A2A refueling at night as it is a B***h to find the tanker sometimes on a moonless night and is very easy to get disoriented (so let's just assume it is a clear day for this example). But, yes, JHMCS on and boresight mode - and then there is the regular mode and long range mode. You will see in regular mode your range will go out to 5 or 10 miles on the radar screen but when in long range mode the radar will show it is looking out 40 miles.  So, the sensor control switch up in a short press will send your radar in to boresight mode for the short range and a long press will put the radar in to long range boresight mode. Boresight mode is actually now slewing around wherever you look within the range of the seeker head/radar. This works fantastic for the AIM9X which is made for high angle off acquisition and engagement. This is exactly what I meant in my previous post. An AIM9X can literally come off the rail and make super drastic changes up, down, left or right to it's flight path so a little practice to get the feel and you will be making kills like you have only imagined (up to 80 degrees off the boresight of the actual aircraft). The AIM120 can be aimed using this as well, however, it is not as capable in the very short range regime as the AIM9X so use that missile for when they are a little further away. In the 2V2 example mentioned prior, I would use boresight mode long range on the JHMCS with a 120 for the first bandit and then I would be thinking/evaluating whether the second shot at the bandit wingman should be an AIM120 or an AIM9 depending on where they are and where I am.

Again there are some other subtle things that may or may not be relevant in terms of using the radar, uncaging, weapon types that can all play in to any given scenario so we are just keeping relatively basic for initial learning of the concepts behind what we are doing and achieving our desired outcome but I hope this starts to get your ball rolling in the right direction. Nothing is more satisfying then getting some competence and confidence that you can take care of business in air to air engagements. 

 


Edited by Oozler
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Wow what a difference and thanks a ton guys. I didn't have to tweak my radar while I am sure thats important DR watson for a long range engagement and I will work on that but I was missing the basics. I was just using the wrong type of radar. I solely relied on TWS and RWS in all situations and after using LACQ and Boresight I polished off bad guy number one from quite a few miles out and kept a lock the entire time but he got a missile off (typical). After my  120 missile went pitbull but I turned down and per everybody's advice I pulled my head up off the radar screen and out of the cockpit and looked around while using my countermeasures to stop missile 1. Low and behold Bad guy number two was below me going the opposite direction (which I would have missed relying on my TWS radar like before) I looked around and quickly locked on to the second guy coming at me at a 1000 or so feet lower than me and in a matter of seconds. (no F10 needed this time)  Keeping my head out of the cockpit, I kept a lock turned into him and switched to AIM9x and boom he was gone. The reason I was not getting the lock warning, is I didnt turn it on. My bad on that one. I thought it was on by default and didn't know there was even a power button. So with everybody's help I was able to put missiles back on the bad guys and get rid of labels and quickly deal with them. My computer wing man FINALLY!!! owes me one. 🙂 I guess I need to spend less time with all the different A2G missiles and bombs (which is about all I have done mostly in the last year tring each and every one out. FYI Big Lazer guided bomb fan here) and start watching A2A videos 🙂 Thanks for everybody's help. 

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For longer range engagements where you're still firmly in the BVR realm and, say, using TWS to track bandits for some early AIM-120 shots, try using the AZ / EL radar page too.  My normal cockpit setup for a BVR intercept is SA page on the AMPCD (the lower screen, and of course ensure DL on), "normal" radar in TWS mode on right DDI, and AZ / EL page on left DDI.  The two radar screens give you a top-down, and a straight ahead view of your radar, and you supplement this with the datalink info on the SA page.  This config provides about the best SA you're gonna get in any aircraft in DCS.

 

Once in visual range, then yes it's all about maintaining eyes outside and getting comfortable with all the ACM radar modes.  Long range boresight is great but there's more modes that all shine in different situations.  Get comfy with the vertical acquisition ACM mode too; that can save your ass if you lose sight but know he's somewhere roughly in front of you. 

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Cool Stearmandriver. I have not seen that AZ / EL before. Just googled it. Thats kind of cool. Typically I have my stores page on there which is a waist in A2A. I will try substituting  with AL / EL. Im still struggling with sirens going off, missiles being shot at me, trying to maneuver, wandering where my wing man is , dealing with my wing man calling out bad guys and missiles at 12 o-clock, (by the way when he does that I am like where the hell is 12 o-clock when I am upside down headed toward the ground 🙂 ) using my countermeasures in a panic, changing missile type, and then there is, oh yeah, trying to keep an eye on where the bad guys are all at the same time. 🙂 This is going to take a lot of practice and patience 🙂 Slowly making progress here. I know others in this thread recommended SA. Just have not started down that path but its time. So I am also going to load up the DL pod and add that as well. Going to need to google how to use the DL pod now. All good advice. Going back to drones so I can get quick on changing all this stuff, and understand what I am looking at on the fly while looking around and keeping an eye on the bad guys.

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Start by cheating, don't worry about wingmen, start with 1 vs 1, use the F10 menu to see the missiles being fired at you.

 

The tactic is to know how long you can keep flying at the enemy aircraft even if its fired at you, to help ensure your AMRAAM will at least go pitbull and also have a good chance to hit.

 

Use the F6 missile view too.  You will be surprised that you can guide your AMRAAM then make a 90 deg turn (diving turn if need be to keep speed), then another 90 deg climbing turn away, the enemy missile soon looses speed and every time it turns to track you, it looses speed and energy.  


Then do it again but with no labels or maps and you will start to get to know some ranges that you feel safe.  Energy of your aircraft is key, worst thing you can do (in a medium range fight) is start evasive turns and firing out counter measures the moment you detect a missile launch.  Once closer in though, that is a whole different ball game.

 

CAP is not always technically perfect, but his vids are never too long and usually to the point, so you don't fall asleep with too much detail.


AZ/EL video here  

 

 


Edited by Dr_Watson
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5 hours ago, Justin1Ntime said:

So I am also going to load up the DL pod and add that as well. Going to need to google how to use the DL pod now. All good advice. 

No need to "load up" the datalink pod... the datalink we're talking about here isn't a store, it's built into the jet.  Just turn it on with the DL pushbutton on the UFC.  Select DL, then push ON, just like turning on the tacan or ICLS receiver.  It defaults to channel 127 and that's always correct, so no channel change... just turn it on. 

 

The datalink pod that I suspect you're thinking of, the store you can load... that's for use with specific "in the loop" air to ground weapons; it provides the ability to steer the weapon from the cockpit after launch.  It's cool, but not what we're after here.  👍

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LOL DRWatson.  "Energy of your aircraft is key, worst thing you can do (in a medium range fight) is start evasive turns and firing out counter measures the moment you detect a missile launch." Yeah I was doing that every run and is a good description of me in full on panic mode hearing alarms and my wing man yelling missile at x o'clock. Yeah I am a big CAP fan he has taught me how to fly and kill almost every thing on the ground. I just avoided any A2A as I got sucked in watching laser guided bombs and JSOWS blowing things up so I got started there. I just finished his DL / SA 2 part video. Going to give all that a try tonight. I like the idea of getting rid of the wing man. I was relying on him to help me out so I could make it to way point 2 if I ran out of missiles but sometimes as I am trying to practice he shoots down the plane I was trying to find it.   The one on one sound more manageable. That way I dont have 2 guys shooting at me. I was watching Spudknocker for missile avoidance tactics and A2A maneuvering late last night. Good stuff there too. When you say use the F6 are you saying you can steer your AMRAAMs?

 

Stearmandriver I knew it was for the TV guided missiles. I thought that is what you were talking about. I just associated the two DL and DL POD. Good call out. I was going to put it on but will skip that step.

 

One other question. I keep getting Radar Jammed I have not logged in this AM to look but is there a place to turn that off? Thats annoying I am waiting for my missel to go pitbull then I get jammed on every run and it says "lost" . After watching CAP it looks like I got to burn through it but I am reluctant to do anything when they are jamming me as I cant see where they are at and I know a missile is coming. Or maybe when I start using SA that will help with that. Or I guess I will know how long I got with DR Watsons method of learning when to / not to turn with a bit of practice. 

 


Edited by Justin1Ntime
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