not planned Easy mode AAR

[Ebein]

My squadron has several 70+ pilots (2 @ 80yo), and while I expect most of my squadron pilots to be able to AAR in their 'primary' airframe, I don't have the expectation that my older pilots are able to.  For many of them it is their first SIM and first video game period.  It would be nice if we had an option to allow an easy mode AAR so we could design more of our campaign missions with AAR.  

 

I would suggest either an autopilot AAR, or preferably ( and probably easier to implement ) a radius based AAR, if you are within X meters of the tanker you get refueled, only allowing AAR within a certain cone behind the tanker would be good also.

 

Ebein Tides

VFA-106 Gladiators

[SilverHawk94]

AMEN to that brother...….I've been playing DCS for years and I have purchased most of the planes and fly them very often and I still struggle with AAR.

I gave up but I would pay to get this feature.

 

[SharpeXB]

I can never understand why just selecting unlimited fuel isn’t a good enough option if you can’t put in the time to practice AAR. If you want to pretend that you’re doing AAR, just set unlimited fuel and fly next to the tanker. Pretend you’re refueled and go on. It would be the same thing. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I can never understand why just selecting unlimited fuel isn’t a good enough option if you can’t put in the time to practice AAR. If you want to pretend that you’re doing AAR, just set unlimited fuel and fly next to the tanker. Pretend you’re refueled and go on. It would be the same thing. 

Accessibility options don't hurt, though.

[SilverHawk94]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I can never understand why just selecting unlimited fuel isn’t a good enough option if you can’t put in the time to practice AAR. If you want to pretend that you’re doing AAR, just set unlimited fuel and fly next to the tanker. Pretend you’re refueled and go on. It would be the same thing. 

 

that is what I typically do just select "unlimited fuel" but just to let you know that I've put alot of time practicing AAR and still struggle.

20 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

This again O.o (enjoy reading 11 pages of nonsense).

 

Thanks for pointing us to this thread......the fight continues 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, SilverHawk94 said:

 

that is what I typically do just select "unlimited fuel" but just to let you know that I've put alot of time practicing AAR and still struggle.

Thanks for pointing us to this thread......the fight continues 

It seems to click for some, less for others. It's sheer frustration until you find your groove with it.

[Mars Exulte]

3 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

This again O.o (enjoy reading 11 pages of nonsense).

  Heh, pretty much

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I can never understand why just selecting unlimited fuel isn’t a good enough option if you can’t put in the time to practice AAR. If you want to pretend that you’re doing AAR, just set unlimited fuel and fly next to the tanker. Pretend you’re refueled and go on. It would be the same thing. 

Unlimited fuel removes fuel management. Easy AAR allows you to keep the pressure of fuel management that impacts how you fly, where you fly, and what you take with you on the mission. They're totally different, and I'd say easy AAR is the more realistic option.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Unlimited fuel removes fuel management. Easy AAR allows you to keep the pressure of fuel management that impacts how you fly, where you fly, and what you take with you on the mission. They're totally different, and I'd say easy AAR is the more realistic option.

So just pretend that you’re managing fuel. Why does it matter? If you want realism then learn to AAR. There’s nothing realistic about your plane magically filling itself with fuel anymore than it having an infinite supply. AAR is not an insurmountable obstacle, it just requires practice. 

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So just pretend that you’re managing fuel. Why does it matter? If you want realism then learn to AAR. There’s nothing realistic about your plane magically filling itself with fuel anymore than it having an infinite supply. AAR is not an insurmountable obstacle, it just requires practice. 

Why pretend when you can have it simulated? If the draw to DCS is realism then I'd expect people to prefer the more realistic option. Some people have trouble with AAR for whatever reason, so the next best thing for them might be to simplify it so they don't lose out on other aspects of the sim (like fuel management). Realism isn't binary, just because one thing is simplified it doesn't make any other attempt at realism worthless. If that was the case, wouldn't that make DCS the same as Ace Combat right now just because ECM isn't accurate? No, I assume most people here prefer DCS because most things outside of ECM are pretty well modeled. I don't see any reason to be concerned with another DCS player choosing an ever so slightly less realistic combination of settings for their sim compared to mine. I can just uncheck easy refuel the same way I uncheck game mode, rudder assist, and similar options.

[EasyEB]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

I'd say easy AAR is the more realistic option.

[Exorcet]

39 minutes ago, EasyEB said:

I mean in comparison to zero fuel burn engines, is it that silly a statement? I don't think ext tanks would be of much use if those existed.

[draconus]

I stopped arguing with optional simplification wishes since this was reminded to me:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/world/

Quote

DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet.

It is by ED design and desire after all.

[Tippis]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So just pretend that you’re managing fuel. Why does it matter?

Because your argument defeats itself.  Why are you so bothered by the plane magically filling itself with fuel — just pretend it's not. See how that works? So by necessity, you must be fully in favour of this idea or just out yourself as a hypocrite. Which one is it?

 

You have always been utterly and completely unable to construct an even remotely intelligent and cogent argument against making DCS better for everyone, and every last of your vehement unreasoned and nonsensical foot-stomping against things that would improve the game always fall afoul of that same mind-boggling unawareness of what you, yourself, are saying. You always defeat yourself at every point. It would be kind of humorous if you weren't so incapable of self-reflection.

 

Here, you are arguing against increased realism, and your only argument against that improvement is that somehow (and you are never able to articulate how on earth this is even remotely logical) this increased realism is less realistic; that to somehow maintain the realism of the game, players should apply one of the most unrealistic options the game as to offer. Huh?!

 

More generally, why is it that you are always so adamantly against making the game what it is — explicitly and unquestionably — supposed to be?

What actual, sane, sensible, cogent and coherent reasons can you offer against this kind of improved realism?

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Some people have trouble with AAR for whatever reason,

That reason is really just lack of practice. DCS isn’t unique in requiring skill and practice to play. That’s just the nature of gaming. IMO sim racing is much more difficult than AAR and I don’t see an Auto-Drive mode in that. 
 

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot” <————- by giving them unlimited an fuel option 

Edited March 22, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Fri13]

16 hours ago, Ebein said:

My squadron has several 70+ pilots (2 @ 80yo), and while I expect most of my squadron pilots to be able to AAR in their 'primary' airframe, I don't have the expectation that my older pilots are able to.  For many of them it is their first SIM and first video game period.  It would be nice if we had an option to allow an easy mode AAR so we could design more of our campaign missions with AAR.  

 

I would suggest either an autopilot AAR, or preferably ( and probably easier to implement ) a radius based AAR, if you are within X meters of the tanker you get refueled, only allowing AAR within a certain cone behind the tanker would be good also.

 

Ebein Tides

VFA-106 Gladiators

 

This was discussed maybe year or two ago as well, many are against the idea of "easy mode" for something that is requiring skill to do,

so either it is just a principle that DCS World should not offer any assistance features for the pilots for any reason, example:

- Physical conditions like hand shaking or ADHS for staying stationary for so long periods or what ever)

- Technical conditions like non-extended joystick, joystick input ghosting

- Skill level (not yet capable to perform such close-formation flying but wants to be able do the air refueling)

Or it can even be just a attitude of "git good boy!" to tell others first to learn something - what is the challenge. 

 

Anyways, a feature that would assist players for performing air refueling more easier manner is not away from any other player.

Just like we do have "EASY RADAR" or "EASY FLIGHT MODELING" or "CENTER TRIMMER" etc. They are totally optional. 

If someone doesn't like those, then do not enable them.

 

I suggested in the older thread this:

 

 

That RED FUNNEL is the automatic guidance zone. It would have a few parameters to it in special settings.

• Funnel distance from the basket or boom (ie. 50-700 meters)
• Funnel width from its center line (directly behind the position of the basket/boom where connection is required to be done)
• Funnel automatic "magnet" strength.

The third option is the key feature really, as the idea is that red funnel zone is like a magnet, a "tractor beam" that will "grab" the aircraft and start to pull it to center of the line and toward the basket/boom. Closer you get then more controlled it becomes, but it has only specific aircraft speed/angle authority. 

So example if the tanker is flying 350 knots, then it can be example that it can only work on aircraft that flies +/- 5-50 knots from it. It can as well example only work for aircraft that has +/- 2-15 degree per second turn rate (from the axis).

 

So various settings would allow to make it very subtle assistance, or very strong one. So depending the settings, player needs to still learn to perform approach, handle the throttle and the stick. The funnel would be "per aircraft" option, where a aircraft that has requested the position will get it, while others don't. At any given moment the player could just slam throttle up/down or brake away and player has full control of aircraft. 

 

Such a feature would allow any new player to begin learning to perform the missions with air refueling option in mind, so they can learn to manage fuel, flying and times. They as well can learn easily the process of approaching the tanker as well aligning with it, the refueling procedure and then detaching. 

 

Feature would be server-client side, so server can enforce it Off for everyone, and then client can enable/disable it from their side if server allows it. So those who doesn't need it, can just keep it off and they will never be assisted by any means if not wanted, while those who needs it, can have it when server allows it. 

If nicely implemented, it could be even a tanker specific so mission designer can enable it for a specific tanker while others are without it. 

 

That way everyone has what they want. Everyone can learn or practice their skills in a manner they need it.

[Tippis]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That reason is really just lack of practice. DCS isn’t unique in requiring skill and practice to play. That’s just the nature of gaming. IMO sim racing is much more difficult than AAR and I don’t see an Auto-Drive mode in that.

…and true to form, you've just defeated your own argument against improving the game by highlighting a good way in which easy AAR would benefit DCS players.

 

Oh, and various degrees of auto-drive can be found in just about any competently design racing game these days, because they're not stuck in the past and understand that appealing to a wider audience is something that benefits everyone.

 

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot” <————- by giving them unlimited an fuel option

Except that the absolute unrealism you are arguing in favour of doesn't satisfy what the full quote actually says they're striving for. If you have to mangle statements that badly to fit your desperate desire to keep DCS unrealistic and unapproachable to the target audience, you only expose how your pathetically weak your entire stance is.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Tippis

[Fri13]

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

IMO sim racing is much more difficult than AAR and I don’t see an Auto-Drive mode in that. 

 

Let's see few games like:

- Project Cars

- Asseto Corsa

- Dirt Rally

- Grand Turismo

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are entitled to have what opinions ever you have.... But you should always be able to explain them to others that how you have such opinions, as you need to be able to clarify them to yourself as well. 

Like why is this kind idea so terrible, that ED is already supporting?

 

 

Like, have a "GAME MODE" and then have a "SIMULATOR MODE" and "CUSTOM MODE" where player itself can select all kind functions between two ends of the learning curve. Is that so terrible and bad thing?

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Fri13
Added Grand Turismo example

[Exorcet]

  

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

That reason is really just lack of practice. DCS isn’t unique in requiring skill and practice to play. That’s just the nature of gaming. IMO sim racing is much more difficult than AAR and I don’t see an Auto-Drive mode in that. 
 

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot” <————- by giving them unlimited an fuel option 

 

The first post here gives other reasons as well, but whatever the reason is doesn't matter. There is no correct way to play DCS. It's not mandatory to master AAR. However if one were considering to learn AAR, I think an easy AAR option would be far more beneficial than unlimited fuel.

 

If you fly with unlimited fuel you have no incentive to add tankers to missions. You also won't learn the limits of your aircraft when it comes to range or endurance, nor will you have to be concerned with balancing weapon load out with fuel. None of this is to say that using unlimited fuel would prevent one from ever attempting AAR, but actually having to think about fuel and making tankers a bit more accessible seems like the faster path to learning AAR unassisted if you ask me.

 

Or maybe it's best pointed out with an example. I have a Gulf mission where you fly from the Arabian Sea to Minab to bomb some targets, however one of the restrictions in the mission is altitude. You have to fly under the radar horizon of radar stations in Iran. This means flying really low, and it significantly cuts your range (F-18). As a result you need to take ext tanks and refuel twice, once on the way in and once on the way out (green dots).

 

 

There are also possible air threats around the target so you may be tempted to use AB but it could end up costing you your plane. Easy AAR doesn't really change this mission. It lowers the skill ceiling needed to hook up with the tankers, but all the other pressures and skills required remain. Unlimited fuel trivializes everything. You don't need the tankers. If you want to pretend you do, you still don't get penalized for say setting up your TACAN incorrectly and taking a long time to find them (the first tanker is a S-3, it doesn't hold a lot of fuel). Your ext tanks are pointless. You can keep afterburners on for the whole mission. There are some pretty obvious differences between unlimited fuel and easy AAR.

[Fri13]

11 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

However if one were considering to learn AAR, I think an easy AAR option would be far more beneficial than unlimited fuel.

 

Totally agree.

 

Unlimited fuel does not consume fuel. It means that player can have:

- a full afterburner as long as wanted. = Unrealistic + doesn't teach to control the fuel consumption

- a steady weight because constant fuel amount = Unrealistic + doesn't teach different flight characteristics

- no requirement to even consider location on map as no need to reach tanker = Unrealistic + doesn't teach the situational awareness in mission planning

- no requirement to connect to tanker = no requirement to even consider whole tanker + no requirement for the air refueling procedure.

 

Unlimited fuel is not compensation for the easy air refueling that would:

- Require player to mind fuel consumption = know how to control the throttle for speed, time and range.

- Require player to know how a amount of fuel changes flight characteristics = PIlot doesn't go dog fighting with full fuel and bags.

- Require player to be aware of the mission objectives and utilities = Need to know how to find the tanker and when to get there.

- Require to connect to tanker = When successful then mission continues, if failed (and failure is possibility) then proceed to airbase for conventional refueling.

 

Only thing compared to non-assisted air refueling is that it is just assisted refueling, helping player to make a connection and fly in formation with the tanker. Everything else in the mission is as usual. 

If we would make the simplest possible assisting element, it would be that player needs to fly inside a invisible box/area that is behind the tanker and as long the player stays there the aircraft is refueled at constant rate. But it would be just like flying inside a 50 x 50 x 50 meter box and get fuel, and it feels more cheating than a nice assisting feature that helps player to make a connection and at least try to make a connection.  

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

  It's not mandatory to master AAR.

Indeed it’s not. There are plenty of missions you can do which won’t require AAR. That’s only needed for longer missions in certain aircraft. Many DCS planes can be flown for quite long sessions without it. 

50 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

 However if one were considering to learn AAR, I think an easy AAR option would be far more beneficial than unlimited fuel.

Any sort of game aid helper would just become a crutch and actually prevent someone from learning this. There’s no real way for the game to help outside of tutorials etc. It’s something you just have to put time into practicing. 

53 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

  Or maybe it's best pointed out with an example. 

And that example is a really good incentive to learn AAR, if you want more challenging scenarios and realism. 

[Tippis]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Indeed it’s not.

So why do you keep making arguments that solely revolve around, or can be reduced to, that either people should learn this skill or the game isn't for them? Especially when you then immediately turn around and say that learning this should be as dis-incentivised as possible?

 

Quote

Any sort of game aid helper would just become a crutch and actually prevent someone from learning this.

No, it would not for the very simple and ridiculously obvious reason that that's not how learning works. You would have to have no experience — personal or vicarious — from any and all processes and modes of learning to believe something as monumentally divorced from all known reality as the notion that being helped does not… you know… help with learning.

 

Quote

There’s no real way for the game to help outside of tutorials etc.

That's just blatantly false on the face of if since it already does exactly that in a number of different ways related to numerous other aspects of flying. But more than that, all you're saying here is that the game is lacking. What people are suggesting in this thread is that this lack of capability on the game's part should be addressed, which it very clearly and obviously can be.

 

So the question remains: why are so adamantly opposed to the game being improved?

 

Quote

And that example is a really good incentive to learn AAR, if you want more challenging scenarios and realism. 

Actually, it is a good example of why adding helpers would allow people to enjoy more challenged and more realistic scenarios. But you keep suggesting that unrealistic and non-challenging options are much better. That doesn't really make sense in the context of what DCS is supposed to be.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Tippis

[Furiz]

18 hours ago, SilverHawk94 said:

AMEN to that brother...….I've been playing DCS for years and I have purchased most of the planes and fly them very often and I still struggle with AAR.

I gave up but I would pay to get this feature.

 

 

The reason why real pilots ever fly as much as 2 different planes throughout their carrier tells a thing or two about learning curves, flying every plane makes you jack of all trades but master of none. Pick one plane and fly it for few months and you'll manage your AAR, with practice ofc.

 

AAR takes practice and patience and not jumping from one plane to another cause every plane is different.

 

20 hours ago, Ebein said:

My squadron has several 70+ pilots (2 @ 80yo), and while I expect most of my squadron pilots to be able to AAR in their 'primary' airframe, I don't have the expectation that my older pilots are able to.  For many of them it is their first SIM and first video game period.  It would be nice if we had an option to allow an easy mode AAR so we could design more of our campaign missions with AAR.  

 

I would suggest either an autopilot AAR, or preferably ( and probably easier to implement ) a radius based AAR, if you are within X meters of the tanker you get refueled, only allowing AAR within a certain cone behind the tanker would be good also.

 

Ebein Tides

VFA-106 Gladiators

 

Why not make an AAR mission?,

you have 70+ members, so make missions so that only members that passed through training (and are capable of AAR) can participate, like in real airforce.

Do AAR training missions with your members that can't do it, teach the rookies? That's how squadrons do it, they train together so they can do missions together.

[Fri13]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

The reason why real pilots ever fly as much as 2 different planes throughout their carrier tells a thing or two about learning curves, flying every plane makes you jack of all trades but master of none. Pick one plane and fly it for few months and you'll manage your AAR, with practice ofc.

 

So.... Test pilots and many other pilots are not a real pilots who have experience with tens, if not hundreds of aircraft, with mastery to tens of aircraft, while just experience with most for comparisons etc, accumulating together thousands (10000-20000) flight hours? 

Should someone who meets a pilot who has career as such to tell them that they are not a real pilots but just "jack of all trades"?

If the learning curve is so huge, why it would take just a few months from a non-pilot to be able manage air refueling, carrier landings etc? Like how many hours should a virtual pilot put to learn those relative to real pilots?

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, Furiz said:

you have 70+ members, so make missions so that only members that passed through training (and are capable of AAR) can participate, like in real airforce.

Gating content in that way is a near surefire way to lose community members and erode participation in general. The whole point of this thing we're all enjoying is that it isn't the real airforce, so making the same demands on the people who just come to have a bit of fun with other people isn't exactly being a good custodian of their interests or being particularly respectful towards how they choose to spend their time.

 

And since we're talking about age, it's one of those instances where you can't actually fully expect that they will be able to get the feel in, nor that it will be really worth their time to spend time on that rather than the actual fun stuff they come to the game for.

 

14 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Do AAR training missions with your members that can't do it, teach the rookies? That's how squadrons do it, they train together so they can do missions together.

While training missions are certainly a good idea, what would make that idea even better is if you had the ability to ease people into the training by offering a staged approach where difficulty increases over time. And again, this isn't real life — it's a game that offers (or at least should offer) the ability to let you do missions together without the same required investment.