Harrier status

[Sn8ke]

Hey guys, just curious, what it the level of completion in the Harrier’s current state? What systems or features are still pending? Thanks

[Eviscerador]

It depends on your standards. For me it is quite good and you have all you need to provide CAS or strike ops on the battlefield. Some issues remain for several systems but most of the time they are not gamebreaking.

 

It is a fun plane to fly.

[Vakarian]

This should get you rough idea on the current status of the Harrier

 

[Cunctator]

The Harrier should get another substantial update with next weeks scheduled patch 2.7. Better wait until then and look at the changelog.

[Fri13]

6 hours ago, davidzill said:

Hey guys, just curious, what it the level of completion in the Harrier’s current state? What systems or features are still pending? Thanks

 

Flight modeling requires lot of work when it comes to inverted flight and engine thrust or aircraft drag. As well engine fuel economy needs checking as it is reported it can fly empty.

Yes, you do not explode in the air or you do not fly Mach 2.0 (just months ago it was fixed that you didn't go supersonic by just releasing all bombs) etc, but it is not accurate in all scenarios.

 

The ARBS system is not modeled correctly, it is key system to calculate a slant range to Target Designation (TD). Meaning, you need to create TD using various sensors and then ARBS use aircraft INS, air speed, altimeter etc to calculate the target distance when the angle rate changes on TD. And this generates the accurate attack solution for gun/rockets and bombs. When the ARBS is not available/usable, you need to revert to backup modes but all those backup modes has not been modeled, and the secondary ones like RALT or BALT modes doesn't work.

Yes, you get the release/firing solutions but they are just magically perfect without any challenge or requirements to do proper procedures or targeting.

 

The heart/core of the AV-8B N/A is it Dual Mode Tracker (DMT) that is located in it's nose is not properly at all.

It is a 6x TV camera for good weather targeting and Laser Spot Tracker (LST) for night/low light and buddy target designation.

 The TV should be a low resolution contrast based targeting system that requires to find a contrast (this has to do lack of it in DCS World by Eagle of Dynamics) and it lock to it automatically, that means if there is low contrast or no contrast the TV crosshair doesn't lock and you need to revert to INS mode. If there is multiple contrast areas in a TV screen the system can lock in anything in it. The TV mode perform the locking procedure by first detecting the whole scene contrasts and then shrinks the lock crosshair on the strongest one.

 This is not modeled at all, why the TV mode can be magically locked on anything perfectly as it is ground stabilized - as said "magically".

You get to use the TV to find targets but it is just unrealistic system without the challenge and proper process.

 

The LST is partially working, meaning you will get DMT locked to a laser spot that someone is firing. The system should provide three different scanning modes at various width and height "boxes" that is possible be slewed to area where laser spot should be found. They are max area, medium and HUD. These three modes has been added but the areas are not possible be slewed. These should be coming.  The HUD LST scan mode is not properly modeled, but likely waiting the LST overall. You can get the Harrier locked on laser spots but there is no proper requirements to transfer the TD to INS or TV and the MFCD modeling might have wrong process for re-attack. The DMT lacks as well protective lens lid system where the upper/bottom parts can be covered by lids when too strong light is shining on it. This is why attack toward sun is possible as the lids will shut and render DMT inoperable and you lose TD and hence attack fails.

Can you use it to example find and lock on JTAC lazed target? Yes.

 

The INS mode doesn't work right, it is a HUD based TD that happens by pilot visually placing a TD diamond symbol on the target and correcting it position few times as it moves, and Mission Computer (MC) will use these pilot corrections to calculate the target true altitude and hence location. Likely the INS mode should only be slewable when the TD diamond is inside the HUD, but currently you can slew it regardless if it is outside the HUD. The INS generated TD is as well ground stabilized and it moves at constant ground speed. 

 

Then there is a thread about illogical process to generate bombing solution for AUTO mode (the CCIP bombing is unrealistically accurate as it perfectly knows ground altitude) that is now requiring a EHSD (digital moving map) to be used with it and generate the bomb fall line, release cue and allow release of bombs. This has to do with as well using the EHSD as a target designator (system mentions it as "MAP") as in that mode you should be able move steerpoints, create a TD in couple kilometers accuracy, but most importantly navigate and re-attack the target by generated guidance. It seems to be questionable. And when you are now in INS mode, you can see the TD diamond moving on map, but it is as well locked to ground speed so if you zoom out or in, the TD moves at slowest speed so if you need to move TD example 120 km then it will take "some" time. The INS mode moves TD as well in polar coordinates on map that mix up things with lack of HUD modeling and other sensors.

 

The Targeting Pod (TPOD) is under work, and currently we have a hybrid - 2nd generation from 1996, and we should get 4th gen from 2008 to be added in future. The pod has own problems in video screen and as well again the perfect ground stabilization it shouldn't have, a very bad gimbal problem that can suddenly move by itself the TD to 54 nmi distance even up to sky or anywhere randomly. The TPOD doesn't have proper INS mode, nor proper Point and Area track modes, but considering new TPOD is coming it is better expect improvement and fixes in that. It as well lacks the proper visuals (low resolution etc) and even depth of field and masked status.

But you can use TPOD to find targets and generate TD.

 

The GAU-12 gun is unrealistically accurate, a real laser. It should have same spread as A-10 GAU-8 on paper so 5 mil with 80% shells hitting inside it, but now you can shoot accuracy of 1/3 of size BTR-80 from a max range, while you should have spread 2+1/3 of a BTR-80 at there.

 

The TDC doesn't work correctly. Clearly Razbam has modeled Harrier read directly from the DirectX the joystick input values, and ignores the DCS axis values like deadzone, that causes TDC to get stuck when passing axis over or just designate itself as slightest movement makes sensors move and generate TD.

Yes you can use any mini-stick for TDC movement but if there is ghosting then it will self-designate as wanted, and it is jumpy.

 

The TV mode doesn't have a required TDC Action mode.

The TDC has Action Mode / Designation by pressing it down (not aft, but literally pushing downward), it was added while after release but was there just few months until it got broken. This is required example for DMT/TV or INS slewing to make it go fast when hold down, and then "sweeten" when just moving TDC at slow rate.

Yes, you can use the TDC but it is just locked to slow speed and painfully slow sometimes in fast situations.

 

Other small problems include things like: 

The HUD and MFCD readability is terrible, but hopefully fix is coming.

NVG's are wrong and improperly functioning with lack of features and visual problems.

The Harrier can taxii at engine idle at least to 80 knots speed (should move with idle, but not accelerate to such speeds), the wheel chucks and ground crew operations are broken....

The MFCD pages and systems has missing parts....

 

Bottom line

 

Is it ready?

No, far from it.

 

Can you have fun with it?

Yes, totally. But you will get frustrated more you learn that things are wrong/broken/missing.

 

Can you complete missions etc?

Totally, you just need to close your eyes and mind from improperly done systems and lack of some key functions.

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Fri13
Formatted on desktop after writing on phone.

[amalahama]

Fantastic post @Fri13 I would add absolute lack of wind correction in CCIP and AUTO modes

[Fri13]

Just now, amalahama said:

Fantastic post @Fri13 I would add absolute lack of wind correction in CCIP and AUTO modes

It is part of the ARBS that does the correction calculations. It is same function for the moving target prediction as to the aircraft it is same thing does the target move or does the aircraft move by the wind. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Fri13

[Beirut]

18 hours ago, davidzill said:

Hey guys, just curious, what it the level of completion in the Harrier’s current state? What systems or features are still pending? Thanks

 

Fri13 has the inside scoop, no doubt. 

 

As a lightweight semi-serious flyer, I enjoy the plane a lot. It's a ton of fun and a solid ground pounder. Maybe I don't know enough to be disappointed with it, but the Harrier is my favorite plane. VTOL off a carrier, some funky night action with the laser guided goodies, and back for a night carrier landing. That's some good fun. Get this plane on sale and it's worth every dollar and more.

[Sn8ke]

19 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

Flight modeling requires lot of work when it comes to inverted flight and engine thrust or aircraft drag. As well engine fuel economy needs checking as it is reported it can fly empty.

Yes, you do not explode in the air or you do not fly Mach 2.0 (just months ago it was fixed that you didn't go supersonic by just releasing all bombs) etc, but it is not accurate in all scenarios.

 

The ARBS system is not modeled correctly, it is key system to calculate a slant range to Target Designation (TD). Meaning, you need to create TD using various sensors and then ARBS use aircraft INS, air speed, altimeter etc to calculate the target distance when the angle rate changes on TD. And this generates the accurate attack solution for gun/rockets and bombs. When the ARBS is not available/usable, you need to revert to backup modes but all those backup modes has not been modeled, and the secondary ones like RALT or BALT modes doesn't work.

Yes, you get the release/firing solutions but they are just magically perfect without any challenge or requirements to do proper procedures or targeting.

 

The heart/core of the AV-8B N/A is it Dual Mode Tracker (DMT) that is located in it's nose is not properly at all.

It is a 6x TV camera for good weather targeting and Laser Spot Tracker (LST) for night/low light and buddy target designation.

 The TV should be a low resolution contrast based targeting system that requires to find a contrast (this has to do lack of it in DCS World by Eagle of Dynamics) and it lock to it automatically, that means if there is low contrast or no contrast the TV crosshair doesn't lock and you need to revert to INS mode. If there is multiple contrast areas in a TV screen the system can lock in anything in it. The TV mode perform the locking procedure by first detecting the whole scene contrasts and then shrinks the lock crosshair on the strongest one.

 This is not modeled at all, why the TV mode can be magically locked on anything perfectly as it is ground stabilized - as said "magically".

You get to use the TV to find targets but it is just unrealistic system without the challenge and proper process.

 

The LST is partially working, meaning you will get DMT locked to a laser spot that someone is firing. The system should provide three different scanning modes at various width and height "boxes" that is possible be slewed to area where laser spot should be found. They are max area, medium and HUD. These three modes has been added but the areas are not possible be slewed. These should be coming.  The HUD LST scan mode is not properly modeled, but likely waiting the LST overall. You can get the Harrier locked on laser spots but there is no proper requirements to transfer the TD to INS or TV and the MFCD modeling might have wrong process for re-attack. The DMT lacks as well protective lens lid system where the upper/bottom parts can be covered by lids when too strong light is shining on it. This is why attack toward sun is possible as the lids will shut and render DMT inoperable and you lose TD and hence attack fails.

Can you use it to example find and lock on JTAC lazed target? Yes.

 

The INS mode doesn't work right, it is a HUD based TD that happens by pilot visually placing a TD diamond symbol on the target and correcting it position few times as it moves, and Mission Computer (MC) will use these pilot corrections to calculate the target true altitude and hence location. Likely the INS mode should only be slewable when the TD diamond is inside the HUD, but currently you can slew it regardless if it is outside the HUD. The INS generated TD is as well ground stabilized and it moves at constant ground speed. 

 

Then there is a thread about illogical process to generate bombing solution for AUTO mode (the CCIP bombing is unrealistically accurate as it perfectly knows ground altitude) that is now requiring a EHSD (digital moving map) to be used with it and generate the bomb fall line, release cue and allow release of bombs. This has to do with as well using the EHSD as a target designator (system mentions it as "MAP") as in that mode you should be able move steerpoints, create a TD in couple kilometers accuracy, but most importantly navigate and re-attack the target by generated guidance. It seems to be questionable. And when you are now in INS mode, you can see the TD diamond moving on map, but it is as well locked to ground speed so if you zoom out or in, the TD moves at slowest speed so if you need to move TD example 120 km then it will take "some" time. The INS mode moves TD as well in polar coordinates on map that mix up things with lack of HUD modeling and other sensors.

 

The Targeting Pod (TPOD) is under work, and currently we have a hybrid - 2nd generation from 1996, and we should get 4th gen from 2008 to be added in future. The pod has own problems in video screen and as well again the perfect ground stabilization it shouldn't have, a very bad gimbal problem that can suddenly move by itself the TD to 54 nmi distance even up to sky or anywhere randomly. The TPOD doesn't have proper INS mode, nor proper Point and Area track modes, but considering new TPOD is coming it is better expect improvement and fixes in that. It as well lacks the proper visuals (low resolution etc) and even depth of field and masked status.

But you can use TPOD to find targets and generate TD.

 

The GAU-12 gun is unrealistically accurate, a real laser. It should have same spread as A-10 GAU-8 on paper so 5 mil with 80% shells hitting inside it, but now you can shoot accuracy of 1/3 of size BTR-80 from a max range, while you should have spread 2+1/3 of a BTR-80 at there.

 

The TDC doesn't work correctly. Clearly Razbam has modeled Harrier read directly from the DirectX the joystick input values, and ignores the DCS axis values like deadzone, that causes TDC to get stuck when passing axis over or just designate itself as slightest movement makes sensors move and generate TD.

Yes you can use any mini-stick for TDC movement but if there is ghosting then it will self-designate as wanted, and it is jumpy.

 

The TV mode doesn't have a required TDC Action mode.

The TDC has Action Mode / Designation by pressing it down (not aft, but literally pushing downward), it was added while after release but was there just few months until it got broken. This is required example for DMT/TV or INS slewing to make it go fast when hold down, and then "sweeten" when just moving TDC at slow rate.

Yes, you can use the TDC but it is just locked to slow speed and painfully slow sometimes in fast situations.

 

Other small problems include things like: 

The HUD and MFCD readability is terrible, but hopefully fix is coming.

NVG's are wrong and improperly functioning with lack of features and visual problems.

The Harrier can taxii at engine idle at least to 80 knots speed (should move with idle, but not accelerate to such speeds), the wheel chucks and ground crew operations are broken....

The MFCD pages and systems has missing parts....

 

Bottom line

 

Is it ready?

No, far from it.

 

Can you have fun with it?

Yes, totally. But you will get frustrated more you learn that things are wrong/broken/missing.

 

Can you complete missions etc?

Totally, you just need to close your eyes and mind from improperly done systems and lack of some key functions.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so completely!

 

 

[Fri13]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:41 AM, davidzill said:

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so completely!

 

You are welcome. That is not a complete list at all, but IMHO the main problems in the Harrier as so many things are built around those systems/features.

 

These problems and systems that Harrier has, makes it more like a Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft than a full fidelity. As even when you can click all the cockpit etc. You will eventually get the same simplified systems as example comparing a F-15C to F/A-18C or A-10A to A-10C II. First it is fun and fancy, but once you start to see through the surface, it just starts to feel being cheated or cheating. 

[Harlikwin]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:31 PM, Beirut said:

 

Fri13 has the inside scoop, no doubt. 

 

As a lightweight semi-serious flyer, I enjoy the plane a lot. It's a ton of fun and a solid ground pounder. Maybe I don't know enough to be disappointed with it, but the Harrier is my favorite plane. VTOL off a carrier, some funky night action with the laser guided goodies, and back for a night carrier landing. That's some good fun. Get this plane on sale and it's worth every dollar and more.

 

Not really an inside scoop, these problems have literally been discussed for years and largely ignored by the developers, also for years.

 

But we do owe him a debt of gratitude for putting all that together in a concise readable format. 

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Not really an inside scoop, these problems have literally been discussed for years and largely ignored by the developers, also for years.

 

More like a "publicly accepted silent truth".

 

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

But we do owe him a debt of gratitude for putting all that together in a concise readable format. 

 

Not to me, more like to everyone who discuss these problems here and has put effort to show and tell about the real things.

For me it has been mostly easier to first to read them here and then confirm in the game etc.

 

I just feel shamed always to think what happened to the public bug tracker because Razbam.

It doesn't help much to list any problems to Razbam when they mostly seem to be just ignored here. And I don't even know would someone dare to take them up to discussion in their Discord channel or Facebook or risk to be banned and attacked. 

 

There is situation where one can't get a good gasp that what is missing, what requires fixing and so on in the Harrier.

 

 

 

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Not really an inside scoop, these problems have literally been discussed for years and largely ignored by the developers, also for years.

 

Yeah, but as mentioned, I'm only a semi-serious flyer and what he posted was past my mental snack bracket. So I'm willing to give him the scoop credit. 

 

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

But we do owe him a debt of gratitude for putting all that together in a concise readable format. 

 

It was well written, that's for sure.

[Fri13]

8 hours ago, Beirut said:

It was well written, that's for sure.

 

Thanks. I wrote that with my smartphone in about 10 minutes while waiting my time in a grocery store cashier line, and then formatted it later with bold key sections and underlined for the short answer on PC when I got home (while waiting a oven and pan to heat up in kitchen).

 

Hallowed are the smartphones...

 

[Cunctator]

From their Discord:

 

Quote

Confirmed changelog for 2.7 update:
- Fixed: Negative clock values when local time reaches 00H00:00
- Fixed: CAS Long/Lat Input
- Fixed: CAS UTM input
- Fixed: TACAN line course deviation
- Fixed: TACAN modes not working correctly
- Fixed: DMT VV slave following ghost vector
- Fixed: UFC input errors after entering TACAN or waypoint values.
- Fixed: TPOD reverts to wide view when selecting FLIR
- Fixed: AAR Zone 3 not appearing on EHSD
- Fixed: TPOD Compass Arrow not pointing North from the POI viewpoint.
- Fixed: DECM annunciator lights remaining ON when pod is OFF.
- Fixed: UFC/ODU display not responding to brightness control.
- Fixed: GBU-12/16 ODU Fuze options not working.
- Fixed: CRS Switch not centering when using keyboard/joystick
- Added: AUTO Point Blank designation.
- Added: Special Option: Action/No Action TDC behavior.
- Added: FLIR Hot Spot detector on HUD
- Added: JTAC 9 line CAS brief reception. The brief can be reviewed in the MPCD CAS page.
- Improved: MPCD FLIR page to incorporate Hot Spot Detector cues.
- Improved: Hydra rockets firing logic for single and ripple fire.
- Improved: USS Tarawa Textures
- Improved: KC-130 Lights
- Improved: Exterior lights w/ LODs
- Improved: UFC WOF mode function.
- Improved: VREST page logic
- Improved: TPOD G4 functionality
   a. NWS functionality
   b. Snowplow mode enabled (requires Action/No Action TDC enabled).
   c. SLV VV (slaved to VV) mode enabled
   d. 2D Yardstick circle enabled
- Improved FM
   a. Corrected insufficient drag at negative angles of attack.
   b. Corrected incorrect thrust being generated when engine is windmilling but no combustion.
   c. Improved negative angle of attack dynamics.
- Missions: "Ottoman Courier" campaign updated for 2.7 features, including the clouds.
- Missions: Added completely new Tote Board to all missions.
- Missions: Fixed invalid loads on some Fast Action missions.

 

 

[Sn8ke]

1 hour ago, Cunctator said:

From their Discord:

 

 

Nice. Been diving into the Harrier. I love this aircraft!

 

[Sn8ke]

This aircraft has great potential. Seems it just needs to be tightened up a bit. I'd highly recommend a cockpit artwork revamp. 

 

[Draken35]

From FB:

 

 

 

 

[Fri13]