Feature Complete HARM

[Zergburger]

Was hoping with completion of POS submodes we would get an updated HARM.

 

Still missing TI and GS settings, and Loss-of-track glide / Equations-of-motion glide features.

I assume we will probably never get Datalink submode, but thats also missing.

 

Any word ED?

Edited March 23, 2021 by Zergburger

[Florence201]

You know Viper is WIP right??

[VampireNZ]

6 hours ago, Florence201 said:

You know Viper is WIP right??

 

More 'Waiting In Perpetuity' than 'Work in Progress'....but we get the point 

[Zergburger]

bump

Are these features planned? is there a rough timeline? Is ED waiting on the HTS pod to finish development before putting more attention on HARM?

[Florence201]

Where are all these modes coming from? What’s your reference doc?

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:27 PM, Florence201 said:

You know Viper is WIP right??

Just because its wip dosent mean it will be implemented at some point. This is why we post these things in wishlist,to make sure its coming.

Edited March 30, 2021 by IkarusC42B Pilot

[Florence201]

28 minutes ago, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Just because its wip dosent mean it will be implemented at some point. This is why we post these things in wishlist,to make sure its coming.

 

I do. But as I said, what are your references that these modes are 2007 blk50 Viper enabled?

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

10 minutes ago, Florence201 said:

I do. But as I said, what are your references that these modes are 2007 blk50 Viper enabled?

To begin with we are not "allowed" to link any documentation newer then 1980 as bignewy will tell you himself if you hop on the discord.2 ED already knows exacly about these feaures wich is what it matters.3 f16 is the most industrialized fighter in the world if you do a couple google searches you will find "some" for slightly older block 50s

Edited March 30, 2021 by IkarusC42B Pilot

[Florence201]

And ED will also tell you “not applicable to DCS Blk”

 

Didn’t ask you to post your references, just to quote your reference docs 

[Zergburger]

14 minutes ago, Florence201 said:

And ED will also tell you “not applicable to DCS Blk”

 

Didn’t ask you to post your references, just to quote your reference docs 

-34

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

2 hours ago, Florence201 said:

On 3/26/2021 at 8:17 PM, Florence201 said:

1 hour ago, Florence201 said:

And ED will also tell you “not applicable to DCS Blk”

 

Didn’t ask you to post your references, just to quote your reference docs 

 What’s your reference doc?

 what are your references

? When did you ask to quote what it sais in the documentation? And if you asked that OP literaly just typed those modes from hes documnetation. Also how do you know its non apicable since you didint even know those modes existed and ED hasnt anwseared either?

[Zergburger]

bump, still hopin ED might chime in and tell me if these are on the roadmap.

[mvsgas]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:25 AM, Zergburger said:

Was hoping with completion of POS submodes we would get an updated HARM.

 

Still missing TI and GS settings, and Loss-of-track glide / Equations-of-motion glide features.

I assume we will probably never get Datalink submode, but thats also missing.

 

Any word ED?

 

Target Isolation (TI) and Geographical Specificity (GS) are not POS sub modes and will vary depending on the missile. TI should only apply to block III, IIIA, IV and V (missile block, not aircraft). Block IIIA and V will have additional options and different settings. Further more, TI is only available to some missile and not all (meaning some missile of the same block may not support the feature). GS is available only on IIIA and V.

This setting affect the behavior of the missile and if ED does not plan to implement those behaviors on the missiles, this options are irrelevant for us as players.

Edited April 22, 2021 by mvsgas
for clarity

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

31 minutes ago, mvsgas said:

Target Isolation (TI) and Geographical Specificity (GS) are not POS sub modes and will vary depending on the missile. TI should only apply to block III, IIIA, IV and V (missile block, not aircraft). Block IIIA and V will have additional options and different settings. Further more, TI is only available to some missile and not all (meaning some missile of the same block may not support the feature). GS is available only on IIIA and V.

This setting affect the behavior of the missile and if ED does not plan to implement those behaviors on the missiles, this options are irrelevant for us as players.

 

Geographic Specificity-
HARM to attack only a designated threat within a geographic region
defined by a circle around the selected threat. It overrides the glide option
of target isolate Block IIIA only and for other is blanked 

Target Isolate - Commands HARM to attack only the des-
ignated threat type and influences the approach by controlling the “flex”
and “glide” missile characteristics. Uncage on the throttle also commands.

Theyre clearly important otherwise they woudnt be there

[Zergburger]

13 hours ago, mvsgas said:

Target Isolation (TI) and Geographical Specificity (GS) are not POS sub modes and will vary depending on the missile. TI should only apply to block III, IIIA, IV and V (missile block, not aircraft). Block IIIA and V will have additional options and different settings. Further more, TI is only available to some missile and not all (meaning some missile of the same block may not support the feature). GS is available only on IIIA and V.

This setting affect the behavior of the missile and if ED does not plan to implement those behaviors on the missiles, this options are irrelevant for us as players.

 

yeah i wasn't implying they were submodes of POS.
I was asking about these other settings/features since they play a much bigger role when using POS modes with long range and long time-of-flight on inertial guidance. Also, with the upcoming HTS pod these features will play an even bigger role.

 

All AGM-88Cs started on block IV software, with block V being fielded 1999 time frame. If this is a 2005 viper it stands a good chance we are using AGM-88C with blockk V software. so... stands to reason we could get these.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Zergburger
HARM info

[TobiasA]

We don't even have the Harm Targeting System pod yet. 

[Zergburger]

On 4/30/2021 at 5:11 AM, deadpool said:

 

You don't need to. Apparently the AGM-88C serves as one in the hornet. Physical criteria like antenna aperture size vs. frequency and range into the wind. 

 

all sarcasm aside, still waiting for word from ED

[FalcoGer]

I think we get the block IV HARM, which doesn't have the gps receiver or home on jam, which block V and VI (88D) have.
So no killing of sams who turn off their radar. missile will just go ballistic or lock something else.

[Cytarabine]

On 4/30/2021 at 10:11 PM, deadpool said:

 

You don't need to. Apparently the AGM-88C serves as one in the hornet. Physical criteria like antenna aperture size vs. frequency and range into the wind. 

 

Yeah with TOO mode and a TGP you basically have a poor mans HTS in the Hornet with its magic TOO mode. 

 

Hopefully they make it a little more in line with HAS mode in the Viper in the near future. 

[HwSpring]

Hi, 

I am reading "Viper Pilot" by Dan Hampton. 

In the chapter about Desert Storm, he is ordered by his Lead to "...Slapshot SA2 at bearing..."  He then describes (I am paraphrasing): Aiming Harm Cross on HUD at the target sam and launching Missile at it. 

What mode that would be on F16? It does not appear to be any of the modes we currently have.

If understand correctly those were pre-HTS days and F4's were carrying pods to locate sams. In the book his Lead orders him to Slapshot specific Sam on specific bearing. 

It appears to be some sort of SP mode with marking on the HUD for where Harm seeker is looking. Similar to BORE mode on Maverick except no slewing? Did it require to lock on before launch or was it lock after launch. If so did pilot had pre-set the harm to go after specific radar - Fan Song for example? Or would it just lock onto any emitter in the seeker line of sight represented by that cross on HUD the author mentioned.

I would appreciate if somebody with knowledge could explain what mode was that and if it something that DCS F16 may get in the future? 

 

Thank you in advance.

 

[Raptor9]

I would keep in mind that Desert Storm pre-dates the software version of the DCS Viper by about 15 years, not to mention a different F-16 Block. I would assume it was different symbology back then.

[Hulkbust44]

On 6/6/2021 at 4:30 AM, Cytarabine said:

Yeah with TOO mode and a TGP you basically have a poor mans HTS in the Hornet with its magic TOO mode. 

 

Hopefully they make it a little more in line with HAS mode in the Viper in the near future. 

Hornet TOO is correct(aside from a lot of missing features). Viper's equivalent is just not as sopsticated. The Hornet's built in HARM CLC integrates data from the ALR-67(RWR) as well as the ASPJ. With this, the processing time in TOO is greatly reduced compared to HAS for example as the system is being told what to expect. The fusion of these sensors is what allows 360 degree SP/PLBK threat identification, tracking, and engagement. Hornet doesn't have an HTS pod as it really doesn't need it for it's role.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Hulkbust44

[NineLine]

You can read the video description.

"Later in development we’ll add other elements like the Expand mode, Geographic Specificity, Target Isolate, and datalink support between team members."

 

[Frederf]

Commonly Dan Hampton quotes describe stuff which is not textbook F-16 terminology. I think he is loose with what things are called or he's using something exotic/old. I've never heard of a "HARM cross".

A slapshot HARM sounds like HAS (LOBL) or a POS RUK (LOAL). Probably GW is 88B block 3 and no HTS, right?

83 A blk 1 86 blk 2 eeprom

87 B spans blk 2 and 3

90 wgu2b which allowed blk 3 for flex & PB

93 C with wgu2c and blk4

Next update was called blk 5 or 3a depending if applied to a blk4 or 3 respectively. The Navy waited for 3a (staying 2) because they avoided 3 as programming the missile required powering the missile on CV, danger.

By 2007 USAF is certainly operating 88C blk 5. D model operational test was scheduled for late 06 and IOC 08.

Technically RUK should turn toward steerpoint but if it starts homing quickly after launch then I suppose it can be used on any bearing as effectively a straight shot.

[HwSpring]

2 hours ago, Frederf said:

Commonly Dan Hampton quotes describe stuff which is not textbook F-16 terminology. I think he is loose with what things are called or he's using something exotic/old. I've never heard of a "HARM cross".

A slapshot HARM sounds like HAS (LOBL) or a POS RUK (LOAL). Probably GW is 88B block 3 and no HTS, right?

83 A blk 1 86 blk 2 eeprom

87 B spans blk 2 and 3

90 wgu2b which allowed blk 3 for flex & PB

93 C with wgu2c and blk4

Next update was called blk 5 or 3a depending if applied to a blk4 or 3 respectively. The Navy waited for 3a (staying 2) because they avoided 3 as programming the missile required powering the missile on CV, danger.

By 2007 USAF is certainly operating 88C blk 5. D model operational test was scheduled for late 06 and IOC 08.

Technically RUK should turn toward steerpoint but if it starts homing quickly after launch then I suppose it can be used on any bearing as effectively a straight shot.

Thank you Frederf. 

I am pretty sure there was no HTS F16 back then. In the same book he makes reference to HTS years later when he ends up weaselling in the same place again in 2003 and they got HTS by then. He appears to be generally not impressed with HARMS and "earlier" versions of HTS pod.

I was also thinking of HAS mode as soon as I've read about the cross. But it is not on HUD. At least not in our F16. 

Since my original question I found another quote In this book: "Magnum! The Wild Weasels in Desert Storm: The Elimination of Iraq's Air Defence" there is a reference to slapshooting HARMS: "... If the Viper was carrying HARMs, we could use our targeting system to pass info via ALIC to the F16's HARM and retarget his missile. From there we could radio the F16 something like 'Slapshot 350', which meant turn to the heading 350 and shoot. The HARM would take it from there based on the threat radar we, in the F4G, had detected along that axis..."

(Book is by  Brick Eisel and Jim 'Boomer' Schreiner. I have not read the whole thing yet - found the fragment while googling Harm slapshots. Booked is ordered though...) 

So it looks more like RUK mode. However it is interesting when he mentioned using their targeting system to pass info via ALIC to F16's HARM... Now it looks like they were able to link to F16's HARM remotely from F4G? Or he simply ignored F16's pilot as an "intermediate interface"  to punch in ALIC radar code before launching missile... Interesting.