reported earlier Aim120c loses track for chaff on head on shot?

[Rick1Penguin]

Hello, i have had this twice in the past week, i deleted the tacviews, but i will post the videos i recorded to maybe see if other people had this.

 

i will keep the tacview if it happens again.

 

 

[Zeagle]

I thought that was the purpose of chaff

 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Come on man , read this Zeagle: 

 

[Кош]

1. DCS Chaff logic is cloned from flares and to be reworked.

2. Does anyone here have any info on 120 chaff rejection, not "it rejects" but "rejection works in this way"?

3. There are 120 locks of cold targets behind chaff clouds so it's randomly wrong because roll the dice is not how chaff should be implemented.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

It's always going to be some sort of form of "roll the dice" because there is no real radar and no real missiles DCS  
I don't think it's possible to model it otherwise. 
 

Best way i would guess would be if chaff has a small % of actually working IF your plane is in, or close to notch.
So IF your position is right, and you release chaff , then a dice gets rolled. 
And to counter 'rapid fire' macro's maybe roll the dice only once per second or something. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Zeagle]

17 minutes ago, Кош said:

1. DCS Chaff logic is cloned from flares and to be reworked.

2. Does anyone here have any info on 120 chaff rejection, not "it rejects" but "rejection works in this way"?

3. There are 120 locks of cold targets behind chaff clouds so it's randomly wrong because roll the dice is not how chaff should be implemented.

Rolling the dice, as you put it, is just one of the tricks a programmer may use to simulate the percentage of losing lock. I am afraid a full simulation of radar and wave patterns is probably beyond any computer today. I don't know how they simulate this internally. But I am sure that ED does a good job at simulating it. 

 

Perhaps the locking of a target after penetrating the chaff cloud is just how the 120 would work. That's why Fox 3's are so dangerous.  That's also why there are radio calls when one is fired and why you should know where all your people are.

 

 

[Кош]

By reworking chaff I mean, for starters:

Only illuminated chaff should affect anything. Chaff should act more as a screen than bait. Radars and seekers(SARH and ARH alike) should not see behind chaff. 

Regarding rejection and see-through. Either you see the chaff and use some technique to reject it but don't see anything useful behind, or chaff physical properties don't affect your search altogether and you inherently don't have to reject it - your wavelength is unaffected like unaffected by weather for example. That's why people change seekers frequencies, and chaff net cell sizes. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Кош

[Noctrach]

Lots of good chaff discussion in "the other thread"

NineLine commented on Hoggit that they're reworking chaff currently

https://old.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/mb9zp6/air_combat_sim_sim_podcast_interview_with_nineline/gs0c6wa/

 

Hold thine horses.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Noctrach

[Cmptohocah]

All I can say is: if you think that's bad, have a look at the R-27.

[nighthawk2174]

On 3/24/2021 at 7:59 AM, Кош said:

By reworking chaff I mean, for starters:

Only illuminated chaff should affect anything. Chaff should act more as a screen than bait. Radars and seekers(SARH and ARH alike) should not see behind chaff. 

Regarding rejection and see-through. Either you see the chaff and use some technique to reject it but don't see anything useful behind, or chaff physical properties don't affect your search altogether and you inherently don't have to reject it - your wavelength is unaffected like unaffected by weather for example. That's why people change seekers frequencies, and chaff net cell sizes. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

 

I mean chaff isn't a wall you will still get returns through it, will they be reduced in strength.   Take into consideration that the amount of chaff for chaff corridors in Vietnam, with much lower tech search radars, was on the order of 20-25lbs per-NMi to hide a 40m^2 sized target for a short while from search radars.  The metaphor I used in the other thread is its like a cloud and the radar is like the sun.  Even on a cloudy day you can still see some light coming through.  Which lines up with various sources that liken the effect to either weather or noise jamming.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[Fonz_408]

Is the Aim120C being worked on have a look at this Tacview the first missile gets spoofed hard and the 2nd fails to go boom.. 3 120c's to kill one mig ACE just crazy, the launch parameter's are close to perfect.  

Tacview-3 120c vs Mig Ace -DCS.zip.acmi

[Florence201]

The 120c problems are all aircraft, so not just viper related 

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

13 hours ago, Fonz_408 said:

Is the Aim120C being worked on have a look at this Tacview the first missile gets spoofed hard and the 2nd fails to go boom.. 3 120c's to kill one mig ACE just crazy, the launch parameter's are close to perfect.  

Tacview-3 120c vs Mig Ace -DCS.zip.acmi 166.95 kB · 2 downloads

In all fairness, first two were kind of low speed when they got near the target. 
However how the first missile goes after that one chaff bundle that is 500 meters behind the airplane is hilarious  

edit* holy crap A.I fighter seems to have notched the first missile, maybe that's why it went after chaff 


So, in summary : 
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.
Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control).
Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses.
Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Hiko was already dead.

--__-- 

Amraams are completely crazy atm though, but this particular track is not a great example. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Fonz_408]

9 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

 



So, in summary : 
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.
Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control).
Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses.
Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Hiko was already dead.

--__-- 

Amraams are completely crazy atm though, but this particular track is not a great example. 

 

Your clearly not talking to me, as I only took 3 shots ??? 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

It's a copypasta meme, no worries  

[Bear21]

There is an open text that describes a "hypothetical A-A missile seeker " here https://digital-library.theiet.org/content/books/10.1049/sbra024e_ch18

 

I have this document, I can't publish it here as it's a pay doc. But it gives all the parameters for an A-A radar seeker of the type we discuss here, info suh as angular, range, doppler gates etc and as I understand it the person who made the example knows what his is doing. It's a generic representation of how A-A radar missile seekers are made today, i.e. an AIM-120 C or D, Meteor etc, but it's information is not classified as it approximates all but describes none.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Bear21