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IcedVenom

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On 9/17/2021 at 10:05 AM, StevanJ said:

If the Mi24p is not classified, link your information against NVG's here. X

That'd be proving a negative, which isn't usually the best way to go about these things. You could potentially find any number of original documents that don't mention NVGs because they weren't used and as such weren't an issue, but since nothing in there says "they were not used", is it "proof against NVGs"?

 

Note that I'm not really on either side of the discussion, I'm more interested in the discussion itself, the reasoning used, the claims made, the evidence provided. 😃

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4 hours ago, jubuttib said:

That'd be proving a negative, which isn't usually the best way to go about these things. You could potentially find any number of original documents that don't mention NVGs because they weren't used and as such weren't an issue, but since nothing in there says "they were not used", is it "proof against NVGs"?

 

Note that I'm not really on either side of the discussion, I'm more interested in the discussion itself, the reasoning used, the claims made, the evidence provided. 😃

 

Well on one side you have things like Facts, history, reason and SME's. 

On the other side you have foot stomping and petulance and ignorance and large amounts of copium.

 

Guess which side won? 

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1 minute ago, IcedVenom said:

The gamers. o7

 

Quite correct... The kido's that have never even looked through a real pair of NVG's. Then again, given ED's implementation or lack therof... 

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9 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Quite correct... The kido's that have never even looked through a real pair of NVG's. Then again, given ED's implementation or lack therof... 

Your complaining about it simply being added is the real cope. How dare people have fun in a video game.

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3 minutes ago, IcedVenom said:

Your complaining about it simply being added is the real cope. How dare people have fun in a video game.

 

Meh, DCS used to be about simulating things. Which acutally means "limitations". So hey lets give the mi24 some thermals and some hellfires too. Cuz thats gonna be more fun.

 

Even better give the pilot and gunners some AK's they can shoot gansta style out the window. PEAK FUN, in VIDEO GAME. Grand theft AIRPLANE! WOOO

 

 


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Just now, IcedVenom said:

I'm so happy BS3 is coming >:)

 

Pro tip it won't have thermals. Or dudes with AK's

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5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Well on one side you have things like Facts, history, reason and SME's. 

On the other side you have foot stomping and petulance and ignorance and large amounts of copium.

 

Guess which side won? 

 

The side who brought facts..

Good job.

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4 часа назад, Harlikwin сказал:

 

Meh, DCS used to be about simulating things. Which acutally means "limitations". So hey lets give the mi24 some thermals and some hellfires too. Cuz thats gonna be more fun.

 

Even better give the pilot and gunners some AK's they can shoot gansta style out the window. PEAK FUN, in VIDEO GAME. Grand theft AIRPLANE! WOOO

 

 

 

Don't know much about Hellfires (though looking forward to finding out!), but if ED actually goes through with in-game heat rendering or such Mi-24 will have what can amount to IR Mavericks. I'm talking about R-60 air-to-air missiles that were used in Afghanistan to detect and destroy vehicles at night (I do wonder how they were navigating at night to do that in the first place). Not as intended, not by the book by any means, but that's just one stunt folks in 40th Army have been pulling to fulfil their orders and, you know, survive. Other shenanigans include welding a 2B9 gun-mortar to any vehicle that could carry it (which are many) to hit the enemy occupying high ground above BMP gun gimbal limit and taking a particularly accurate laser-rangefinder from a SU-25 and mounting it on a ground vehicle to designate targets for other planes. The latter is actually depicted at a Soviet Military Power illustration, though I doubt they knew what they were describing (would love to read the article though).

 

soviet-mobile-laser-in-afghanistan.jpeg?

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5 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

Your complaining about it simply being added is the real cope. How dare people have fun in a video game.

 

Is night vision in what is pretty much a day only helicopter really what seperates fun from not fun here?

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8 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Is night vision in what is pretty much a day only helicopter really what seperates fun from not fun here?


Oh definitely.. Before the fun setting was only 'mild', now its set to 'euphoric'..

Do you reckon that one day we'll get the Mi24V wingman? Instead of the Mi24p?
Kinda looking for a realistic pairing next.. 🤔

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8 hours ago, WarbossPetross said:

Don't know much about Hellfires (though looking forward to finding out!), but if ED actually goes through with in-game heat rendering or such Mi-24 will have what can amount to IR Mavericks. I'm talking about R-60 air-to-air missiles that were used in Afghanistan to detect and destroy vehicles at night (I do wonder how they were navigating at night to do that in the first place). Not as intended, not by the book by any means, but that's just one stunt folks in 40th Army have been pulling to fulfil their orders and, you know, survive. Other shenanigans include welding a 2B9 gun-mortar to any vehicle that could carry it (which are many) to hit the enemy occupying high ground above BMP gun gimbal limit and taking a particularly accurate laser-rangefinder from a SU-25 and mounting it on a ground vehicle to designate targets for other planes. The latter is actually depicted at a Soviet Military Power illustration, though I doubt they knew what they were describing (would love to read the article though).

 

soviet-mobile-laser-in-afghanistan.jpeg?

 

Yeah, the Use of R60's in that role was a bit of meme, and probably not all that effective, but it was done. But the conditions to actually hit something correctly under those conditions are not gonna be common. The Angolans did similar things in South Africa with Mig23's. Again, even more debatable in that case due to even worse IR contrast conditions, but I guess they did kill a truck or something at one point. In general most good IR missiles have filters/logic to prevent that, since it means they will home in on hot rocks or whatnot.  I guess we will see how ED does the whole IR system, but based on previous performance with everything else they've done my expectations are low. 

 

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21 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Do you reckon that one day we'll get the Mi24V wingman? Instead of the Mi24p?

 

I mean, I certainly would like a Soviet Mi-24V, it was the most prolific variant, but that discussion is probably best suited here or here.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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14 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Meh, DCS used to be about simulating things. Which acutally means "limitations".

 

 

 

That is a very specific subset of simulation. You can simulate things that aren't historical (which is extremely common in DCS in terms of mission/scenario design). There isn't really much of an issue with aircraft having additional capability over their real life versions. That's a legit avenue of simulation. What's important is that we label what's historical and what isn't so that people can simulate what they want.

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7 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

That is a very specific subset of simulation. You can simulate things that aren't historical (which is extremely common in DCS in terms of mission/scenario design). There isn't really much of an issue with aircraft having additional capability over their real life versions. That's a legit avenue of simulation. What's important is that we label what's historical and what isn't so that people can simulate what they want.

 

Point is that the pit would have to be made NV compatible for NV to be usable in the sense we use it in DCS. So you'd more or less have a totally different looking pit, and it would likely be modernized anyway. Frankly I'd be highly amused to see a simulation of what a PNV-57E would look like in DCS in conjunction with pink lights as they were trialed in afghanistan briefly. The cursing and wailing would be epic.

 

 


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5 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Point is that the pit would have to be made NV compatible for NV to be usable in the sense we use it in DCS. So you'd more or less have a totally different looking pit, and it would likely be modernized anyway. Frankly I'd be highly amused to see a simulation of what a PNV-57E would look like in DCS in conjunction with pink lights as they were trialed in afghanistan briefly. The cursing and wailing would be epic.

 

 

 

The level of fidelity of a given simulation is definitely something to consider. If the NVG simulation was to be really in depth, then the points you brought up would need to be taken into account. However that would involve a lot more work than just slapping NVG capability onto the existing cockpit. Copy-pasting NVG's is a lower fidelity simulation, but still a simulation, just as FC3 or AI modeling are simulations despite being intentionally simplified. Come to think of it the lower fidelity relative to the rest of the module is also a good reason to set NVG's as a specific option to check/uncheck.

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3 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The level of fidelity of a given simulation is definitely something to consider. If the NVG simulation was to be really in depth, then the points you brought up would need to be taken into account. However that would involve a lot more work than just slapping NVG capability onto the existing cockpit. Copy-pasting NVG's is a lower fidelity simulation, but still a simulation, just as FC3 or AI modeling are simulations despite being intentionally simplified. Come to think of it the lower fidelity relative to the rest of the module is also a good reason to set NVG's as a specific option to check/uncheck.

 

Call me crazy, I'd prefer for DCS to raise the bar and not lower it when it comes to "simulation", especially in terms of sensors. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Call me crazy, I'd prefer for DCS to raise the bar and not lower it when it comes to "simulation", especially in terms of sensors. 

 

I agree, but the bar isn't moving here, neither up or down. An option is being provided to simulate an additional feature. It's lower fidelity to reduce workload in adding the option (I presume, I don't work for ED) and this is done because simulating the actual design features of the Hind and other modules are a higher priority than basically designing a new fictional cockpit for it.

 

In short the NVG's don't make the rest of the Hind any less realistic unless they auto turn on at night. If they fit into the new loadout restrictions, that solves the problem with people using it online in a historical scenario too.

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30 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

I mean from mid 90's the Mi24p usually flew with an Mi24v..

 

It doesn't really matter that much, a mid 90s Mi-24V will probably just be integrated with Ataka, and a Soviet version won't (just the Shturm-V), it should however have L-166V.

 

Only thing I'm not sure is countermeasures - I know it's still the ASO-2V and I'm pretty sure it has the same controls, just don't know if it was only the 2x2 banks strapped to the tailboom (as with the retrofit Mi-24Ds, but also the AI model has this set-up) or the 3x2 banks that we have, with or without the aerodynamic fairing.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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18 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Quite correct... The kido's that have never even looked through a real pair of NVG's. Then again, given ED's implementation or lack therof... 

  What do you think you are, if not a gamer? Or are you super 1337 retired special forces trying to relive your glory days from the comfort of your living room, shaking your fist at the screen while muttering about what it was ''really'' like? Lol

 

  From the context of involvement here, even Mover, GB, the SMEs involved in this, are all gamers playing a video game. I'm all for realism, too, but it's still funny seeing how upset y'all are getting over a green filter overlaying your view. There's always going to be areas of improvisation, now, before, and thirty years from now. It's not real life, and no matter how many upgrades they do it's only going to ''resemble'' real life.

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23 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  What do you think you are, if not a gamer? Or are you super 1337 retired special forces trying to relive your glory days from the comfort of your living room, shaking your fist at the screen while muttering about what it was ''really'' like? Lol

 

  From the context of involvement here, even Mover, GB, the SMEs involved in this, are all gamers playing a video game. I'm all for realism, too, but it's still funny seeing how upset y'all are getting over a green filter overlaying your view. There's always going to be areas of improvisation, now, before, and thirty years from now. It's not real life, and no matter how many upgrades they do it's only going to ''resemble'' real life.

 

NVG's have limitations. Also the technology continuously advanced over time. I'd like to see some of those differences represented in the game. Just like say there are differences between an AWG-9 and a APG68. There are a ton of docs detailing the development of the tech specifically in aircraft over time as well. So, it is one of those things I think ED could do at least an "ok" job with as the relevant specifications are publicly available if they so chose. Since by and large its not "sekrit". Like you could make a legitemately decent model of say an early Gen2 AVS-5 used for helo ops, that could and would be distinct from and early gen3 AVS-6/9's and then later better versions of the AVS-6/9. 

 

And yeah I have a good bit of real world experience with various generations of NVG's in and out of aircraft.

 


Edited by Harlikwin
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30 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  What do you think you are, if not a gamer? Or are you super 1337 retired special forces trying to relive your glory days from the comfort of your living room, shaking your fist at the screen while muttering about what it was ''really'' like? Lol

 

  From the context of involvement here, even Mover, GB, the SMEs involved in this, are all gamers playing a video game. I'm all for realism, too, but it's still funny seeing how upset y'all are getting over a green filter overlaying your view. There's always going to be areas of improvisation, now, before, and thirty years from now. It's not real life, and no matter how many upgrades they do it's only going to ''resemble'' real life.


Because this is how close one will come to ever flying these aircraft, except of actually being a military pilot. Therefore, yes, we want it to be as realistic as possible. That mindset actually demands progress. With the mindset you present, "it's just a game", you are lowering it, aspiring to less realistic features, less study-sim, less everything that actually defined DCS to begin with. 
 

No one says that you cannot have fun with DCS, after all, this is a hobby of many those who are here. The problem however is, when the sim is supposed to start making things gamey because "let's just screw realism, it's already tiring enouh to live as is, so let DCS be the couch game that you can play with a controller and totally not give a **** about anything". It's as mindless as it get's, and this mindset won't get you anywhere.

 

I state again, there is one DCS, however lots of other flight combat games, what's the reason to polute this sim with nonsense? Why not be patient and wait for MAC? What makes you all aspire to ruin the one combat aviation sim that actually tries to SIMULATE? 
 

This whole whining about non-existent systems, "backed-up" by non-existent sources, or ones that are completely irrelevant is just getting repetitive. And yet, when no actual argument is made, you default to "let this be a game". When one does not have an argument, it's better to listen and learn. The "I want" does not mean that everyone else wants. A big part of this community is neither on forums, nor online. I bet that they didn't find DCS by accident or searching in google: "Fun air combat games"... This discussion is getting pointless, we are going in circles every 4 pages...

 

EDIT: Also, just because DCS doesn't simulate NVG's well yet, doesn't meant that it won't in the future. Having that defeatist attitude that; "Just because something isn't good today, permits to give up on it completely", is just wrong and won't bring the sim any further. I am more than sure, that somewhere in the cards, everything will get an update, NVG too. However don't put your deadlines on ED. There are other more pressing issues. And in all of this rush and whine, start to respect what we have already achieved as a community, mainly ED though. You wonder what? Search on YT how Lock-on Modern Air Combat looked like back in the day.


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25 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

NVG's have limitations. Also the technology continuously advanced over time. I'd like to see some of those differences represented in the game. Just like say there are differences between an AWG-9 and a APG68. There are a ton of docs detailing the development of the tech specifically in aircraft over time as well. So, it is one of those things I think ED could do at least an "ok" job with as the relevant specifications are publicly available if they so chose. Since by and large its not "sekrit". Like you could make a legitemately decent model of say an early Gen2 AVS-5 used for helo ops, that could and would be distinct from and early gen3 AVS-6/9's and then later better versions of the AVS-6/9. 

 

And yeah I have a good bit of real world experience with various generations of NVG's in and out of aircraft.

 

 

You waste way too much time here. Don't you have a job or something?

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