Ergonomic issue with the ORION throttle - Opposite angle. Winwing, any feedback ?

[Harlikwin]

7 hours ago, Catseye said:

 

I have the WH throttle and it is quite old and getting worn out. I will go for the Orion for the following reasons. The grip buttons are a replication of the F-18 button sequence. The base switches also are a closer match to the F-16 and . . . . an F-16 grip is coming. The throttle base will fit my FOX Mount base I use for the WH throttle. So, I will not be mounting it on the desktop and therefore, the grip angle might be something for me to consider.

 

 

I think you'll likely be happy. If they release a 15 or 16 grip I'll probably buy one too. 

[HuggyBear]

Received my Orion yesterday and, as expected, it's great.

 

I don't mind the alignment of the throttles. The alignment would be better if they were 'level' at the rear as per the discussion, but i don't find it uncomfortable and don't notice it when in use.

 

TLDR : Could be better, but it's fine... for me.

Edited April 6, 2021 by HuggyBear

[rob10]

35 minutes ago, HuggyBear said:

Received my Orion yesterday and, as expected, it's great.

 

I don't mind the alignment of the throttles. The alignment would be better if they were 'level' at the rear as per the discussion, but i don't find it uncomfortable and don't notice it when in use.

 

TLDR : Could be better, but it's fine... for me.

 

Got mine yesterday and played haven't had a lot of time to play around with it yet, but this post sums up my thoughts so far as well.

[FZG_Immel]

23 hours ago, MustangSally said:

A fix for what?......hope you are patient! Have had my Taurus since June of last year with not one issue....ergonomically or otherwise. You are basing your decision to purchase on one persons OPINION???

 

 

dude. It's not an OPINION.

 

it's a fact that the angle is backward. That you accomodate with that angle, more power to you. But the angle is defintely ergonomically wrong.

23 hours ago, HuggyBear said:

Received my Orion yesterday and, as expected, it's great.

 

I don't mind the alignment of the throttles. The alignment would be better if they were 'level' at the rear as per the discussion, but i don't find it uncomfortable and don't notice it when in use.

 

TLDR : Could be better, but it's fine... for me.

 

 

good assessement

[MustangSally]

2 hours ago, FZG_Immel said:

 

dude. It's not an OPINION.

 

it's a fact that the angle is backward. That you accomodate with that angle, more power to you. But the angle is defintely ergonomically wrong.

 

good assessement

It is an opinion.....yours! You are about the only customer I've heard of - here, Reddit and Discord that has an issue. It really is a none issue.

[HuggyBear]

That's not what an opinion is. It's been shown to be different to the throttle WW is trying to replicate.

 

Several people have commented that it could be better, here and elsewhere.
 

It's a non-issue for you.

 

You don't need to defend WW so hard.

[wilbur81]

16 hours ago, MustangSally said:

It is an opinion.....yours! You are about the only customer I've heard of - here, Reddit and Discord that has an issue. It really is a none issue.

It's not his opinion. The angle of the throttle doesn't match the real thing. Not everyone will mind this deviation, but it is a fact that the WW throttle doesn't match the angle of the real Hornet throttle.

[FZG_Immel]

and that angle exist for very important reasons called ergonomics...

 

it doesnt prevent you from using and enjoying the product, but it makes it not optimal in the way you can use it, especially in a homemade cockpit, because you cannot grip it comfortably the way it is supposed to be gripped.

Edited April 8, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[DblGonzo]

On 4/2/2021 at 7:33 PM, FZG_Immel said:

I need to post this here, because this is a important issue.

 

I am the recent owner of Orion HOTAS, and im gonna focus on the throttle for the time being.

 

I am very happy with all the buttons, switches, rotaries etc. Coming from a Cougar and a Warthog, I fully appreciate all this quality and the software which drives it.

 

But, there is a MAIN ISSUE, and I could feel it from day one, but I didnt figure it until right now...

 

When I hold the Orion in my hand,i feel like there isnt enough support on the outside of my palm, on the the left side. it forces you to rotate your wrist to the left to get a full grip, like pushing your elbow out.  

 

I couldnt figure the problem until i went and check the throttles in the F/A-18 of DCS...

 

here are two pictures that will make it clear...  

 

first the DCS Hornet throttle, which should be 100% scale..

 

 

as you can see there is a positive angle , which makes the left throttle rest closer to the hand of the pilot when throttles are aligned.

 

now, here is the picture of the orion, see from top down as well..

 

 

As you can see, this angle is OPPOSITE... the right part of the throttle, sits closer to the hand of the pilot than the left... and it should be the OPPOSITE...

As you can also see in this picture, I tried compensating from that a little bit, by orientiing the whole base to the left (blue line and angle)  on my cockpit console, so that now, the throttle kinda sit straight in from of my left hand.. But that isnt enough to make it feel right, and I do not think I want to rotate it even more to the outside...

 

As you can see, there is a simple explanation of WHY the throttle doesnt feel right in the hand.. and it is really a SHAME because other than that its a GREAT product so far. 

 

my issue is that there isnt really a way to fix this. I can try placing shims in between the throttle handle and there axis, to shift them to the left, but that will leave me with a step in between the 2 handle when throttles are at the same setting...

 

Anyway, here it is. I hope everyone understand what I mean.

 

If I made any mistake in assembling the throttles, or anything, I apologize, and I would be glad to be proven prong, but I dont think I am...  unfortunately.

 

 

question. Do Super Taurus user have the same issue ?

 

This is a table top unit. With mine on the table and my elbow even or slightly below the throttle base the handles are angled perfectly and do not cause any crazy bending of my arm.  I can see where moving them to the left side and below your elbow they would be angled funny. But it does say it is a table/desktop configuration, so they shipped exactly what they advertised.  It is a little concerning that the angle on the Super Taurus is the same though.

Edited April 8, 2021 by DblGonzo

[MustangSally]

9 hours ago, FZG_Immel said:

and that angle exist for very important reasons called ergonomics...

 

it doesnt prevent you from using and enjoying the product, but it makes it not optimal in the way you can use it, especially in a homemade cockpit, because you cannot grip it comfortably the way it is supposed to be gripped.

 

It is entirely YOUR opinion!!

 

I'd also like to add - as an ex RAAF aircraft tech with a number of years working on the classic F/A-18A and B, the throttles feel no different to the WW Taurus. I'm talking ergonomics here and not travel. Again it is MY OPINION!!!

Edited April 9, 2021 by MustangSally

[War_Pig]

Respectfully sir, it is a proven and documented (in pictures in this very thread) fact that the angle is incorrect.  Whether or not this presents a noticeable ergonomics problem is up to the individual user, so that may be subjective, but the fact that the angle is backwards is not.

 

No need to get hot under the collar, and no need to whiteknight winwing.  No one is doubting the quality of their product, just critiquing one aspect of it, which is what this forum is for.

Edited April 9, 2021 by War_Pig

[FZG_Immel]

19 hours ago, DblGonzo said:

This is a table top unit. With mine on the table and my elbow even or slightly below the throttle base the handles are angled perfectly and do not cause any crazy bending of my arm.  I can see where moving them to the left side and below your elbow they would be angled funny. But it does say it is a table/desktop configuration, so they shipped exactly what they advertised.  It is a little concerning that the angle on the Super Taurus is the same though.

 

 

you answered your own question. this was not made on purpose. its the wrong angle of the super taurus that was simply duplicated on the orion

16 hours ago, MustangSally said:

It is entirely YOUR opinion!!

 

I'd also like to add - as an ex RAAF aircraft tech with a number of years working on the classic F/A-18A and B, the throttles feel no different to the WW Taurus. I'm talking ergonomics here and not travel. Again it is MY OPINION!!!

 

 

funny. I myself worked with SWISS AIR FORCE C/D hornets, and the feeling on the throttle is entirely different, because the angle is backward. And this is NOT an opinion. its a fact

 

souvenirs souvenirs.. (circa 2007-2014)

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[wilbur81]

19 hours ago, MustangSally said:

It is entirely YOUR opinion!!

 

I'd also like to add - as an ex RAAF aircraft tech with a number of years working on the classic F/A-18A and B, the throttles feel no different to the WW Taurus. I'm talking ergonomics here and not travel. Again it is MY OPINION!!!

 

I'm doing your Picard Avatar to you right now. 

[DblGonzo]

On 4/9/2021 at 11:36 AM, FZG_Immel said:

 

you answered your own question. this was not made on purpose. its the wrong angle of the super taurus that was simply duplicated on the orion

 

funny. I myself worked with SWISS AIR FORCE C/D hornets, and the feeling on the throttle is entirely different, because the angle is backward. And this is NOT an opinion. its a fact

 

souvenirs souvenirs.. (circa 2007-2014)

 

 

 

Nice pictures, I never got to take a close look at the F18 when I was in the US Navy. I was in an F14 squadron 1980-84 VF143 on the IKE CVN69 or the love boat as we like to call it.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by DblGonzo

[FZG_Immel]

3 hours ago, DblGonzo said:

Nice pictures, I never got to take a close look at the F18 when I was in the US Navy. I was in an F14 squadron 1980-84 VF143 on the IKE CVN69 or the love boat as we like to call it.

 

 

 

I would trade all my hornet close time for Turkey close time

[MelkorBorgir]

On 4/5/2021 at 5:21 AM, VIXEN413 said:

Yes, Winwing got this wrong, your thrust lever handles should be tilted by 15 deg to the left... 

This 15 deg angle is a must for carpian canal comfort...  So yes, it matters a lot. 

Unfortunatelly, trying a fix on those wingwing handle, altough rather simple with triangular shaped block of 15 deg angle installed, will see your handles touch and hit eachother since the shape is also wrong somehow. It s due to the double angle cut between both of them that need to be precise. 

Even without the 15 deg, due to slightelly wrong shape, to make sure they dont touch, WW has them both separated by a too big of a gap that is also creating some ergonomic issues... 

 

 

The 15 deg left tilt matches with the angle of the small flat cut area where you have the "cage" button that should be parallel with the throttle axis/plane boresight. 

Mason grips (f/a18 throttle handles contractor builder) plans are avail and show this too... 

Ive used those plans to remake the throttle themselves and adapt it on my rig... Took me a while to get all the angles right but it was worth the effort...

Still a wip though... 

 

baloney, the angle is fine, you just have to have the throttle mounted about knee height as it would be in the jet. 

[FZG_Immel]

On 4/16/2021 at 12:07 AM, MelkorBorgir said:

baloney, the angle is fine, you just have to have the throttle mounted about knee height as it would be in the jet. 

 

no. the angle is wrong. the throttles are mounted at my Knee height, and it doesnt change the fact that the angle is backward... that you dont feel it yourself, is good news for you, but that you cannot read a blueprint or understand the issue, that is a whole other issue...

Edited April 17, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[Xenio]

Glad to know this problem. I'll wait for it to be fixed to buy one. Litteraly no throttles on the market seems interesting besides this own.

[FZG_Immel]

don't get me wrong. The throttle is great, and is the best one on the market in my opinion. but that flaw could be corrected and make it perfect.

[Nodak]

How the engines balance without the throttles locked would be the real test.

[Harlikwin]

15 hours ago, Nodak said:

How the engines balance without the throttles locked would be the real test.

 

Its a total no problem on its bigger brother,  frankly now leave my old WH unlocked too most of the time. 

[MustangSally]

21 hours ago, Nodak said:

How the engines balance without the throttles locked would be the real test.

Not locked on the real jet so no issue!

[Simm0]

I had a bit of a think, then tried pushing the right level forward just a few mm to mimic the angle of the real jet and I can feel that the left throttle very slightly fills more of my hand and changes the angle of my wrist very slightly along with how my pinkie and ring finger contact the buttons. When the throttle is low down at thigh height this helps make it slightly (very slightly) more comfortable. The thing I found doing all this that affects the ergonomics of my wrist the most is actually the height, lifting the throttle up higher it resulted in a much more comfortable positioning no matter the angle I adjusted the right throttle to simulate the real jet angle.

 

Conclusion:-

Non issue for me, if I hadn't seen this thread I would never have noticed

Can see how it could be an issue for others, not sure it would warrant a complete change of design, given the handles are interchangeable it seems feasible they could do it in the future, who knows.

The best thing you can do is fine tune your mounting position to suit your body, the kit and your desk.

I would still purchase this throttle today knowing about how this is designed, it's quite simply one of the best things I did for my flight simming.

[chrisnlnz]

Thanks for bringing this to light with a detailed post and good images, I'm not sure why some are so adamant to discount your experience. "It's not a problem for me so it can't be a problem" seems to be a mindset quite a few people adopt in this thread. That and rejecting reality by suggesting the difference between the real thing and the WW throttle is an "opinion"..

[Simm0]

17 minutes ago, chrisnlnz said:

Thanks for bringing this to light with a detailed post and good images, I'm not sure why some are so adamant to discount your experience. "It's not a problem for me so it can't be a problem" seems to be a mindset quite a few people adopt in this thread. That and rejecting reality by suggesting the difference between the real thing and the WW throttle is an "opinion"..

It's funny you should say this, I see lots of different accounts of peoples own experience with the equipment, all are equally as valid as the others. If you post something like this you need to expect and be prepared for others to post counter experiences, that's part of life.