Ergonomic issue with the ORION throttle - Opposite angle. Winwing, any feedback ?

[chrisnlnz]

2 hours ago, Simm0 said:

It's funny you should say this, I see lots of different accounts of peoples own experience with the equipment, all are equally as valid as the others. If you post something like this you need to expect and be prepared for others to post counter experiences, that's part of life.

Posting counter-experiences is one thing, posting that someones problem doesn't exist is another.. I didn't mean to argue other people's experiences weren't as valid as the OP's. I argued exactly your point that some people invalidate OP's experience.

 

They've made such a good post detailing the issue, even with factual proof that, indeed, the throttle isn't aligned the same in the real Hornet (something that is from both a replica and ergonomics consideration, a potential problem). OP even explains more than once that this doesn't mean it is a poor product. It is just a problem they are highlighting. Yet somehow people attack OP on this (to be clear, I didn't mean you, I agreed with the conclusion in your previous post and am looking to buy this HOTAS despite this thing).

[Simm0]

29 minutes ago, chrisnlnz said:

Posting counter-experiences is one thing, posting that someones problem doesn't exist is another.. I didn't mean to argue other people's experiences weren't as valid as the OP's. I argued exactly your point that some people invalidate OP's experience.

 

They've made such a good post detailing the issue, even with factual proof that, indeed, the throttle isn't aligned the same in the real Hornet (something that is from both a replica and ergonomics consideration, a potential problem). OP even explains more than once that this doesn't mean it is a poor product. It is just a problem they are highlighting. Yet somehow people attack OP on this (to be clear, I didn't mean you, I agreed with the conclusion in your previous post and am looking to buy this HOTAS despite this thing).

Indeed, I don't think anyone has argued that it isn't different to the actual hornet though (gotta be honest I do gloss over some posts if they get overly off topic), I think we can all clearly see that from the photos and analysis there is a difference, I think as most have said it's just that it hasn't impacted their use of the product. That's the funny things about facts and opinions, fact, it's different to the hornet, opinion, it's ergonomically bad/good. Both sets of posters are actually right from a certain point of view

 

Interestingly winwing did post on discord in response to some discussion that they are aware it's off compared to the real aircraft and have based their response on the mostly positive feedback from the customer base. They have also highlighted that it would not be an easy fix to alter how this fits. This combined with all the real world experience of many sim junkies (both good and bad) is good info for prospective buyers.

 

I guess ultimately if you're after a 100% replica this was never the product for you anyway, the panel is not accurate, it places other functions where they should not be. If you're after a pretty close approximation that works well with the sim then this is absolutely great bang for buck.

[aniron]

Official comment from Winwing (Tonylin409) on the HOTAS/SIMPIT Discord:

Quote

Bear. Since this questions being ask so many times by you and other customers. I`m gonna answer this for the record. Yes they angle was off compare to the real aircraft. We decide to wait and see the reaction from customers to decide our further actions. The feedback was mostly postive. So we are not gonna change the design for the ORION or the Taurus as for right now. It is not an easy fix. it is not about production or design at this point.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by aniron

[War_Pig]

I'll give a personal update on this issue:

 

I finally purchased the WinWing Taurus Throttle and Startup Panel and received it quickly, about a month ago.  I bought it knowing that the issue existed but that it was still a quality product and likely the best throttle on the market today.  Having played with it a month now, I still say that without hesitation.

 

I have it mounted in my cockpit in exactly the correct position relative to my seat that a real hornet would have, or at least as closely as possible based off of a number of references publicly available (some of which are contradictory, requiring a little bit of detective work and interpolation).  In VR, the position of the throttle, friction lever, and some of the switches are exactly dead-on, which is amazing.  Many of the switches on the start-up panel are moved or migrated slightly to allow for the inclusion of the BATTERY, GEN, and BLEED AIR controls which in reality are on the right side of the cockpit.  This is fine and doesn't cause any issue, especially after a few hours of flying develops muscle memory.

 

The throttle and associated 5-way hats are great, absolutely wonderful.  The startup panel switches are fine, although they lack the feeling of quality present on the TM Warthog throttle.  My instinct tells me this is due to plastic internals, but I haven't taken it apart to lay eyes on the switches themselves, and it's not a problem, just something to know in advance.

 

The ergonomics of the throttle handle is the same:  Not really a "problem", but something you should know before you buy.  If I hadn't been made aware of this by the OP, I might not have noticed for some time and might have assumed the real hornet was the same way or that something was wrong with me.   Once again, I want to say Thank You to the OP for bringing this to light with graphical explanations so that I knew about it up front.
 

Instead of resting my palm on the back as I did the Warthog, I find myself taking a top grip so that my wrist doesn't have to pronate as much.  It's not something that affects use, but it may present less than ideal comfort, compared to having a more flat angle that matches the natural position of the palm.

 

That said, I would still recommend the product.  The quality and feel of the throttle unit is so far beyond the Warthog, it's actually a more sturdy throttle than the real life jets I fly.  Seriously!

 

Would I love for WinWing to revise their design and release a version 2.0 that addressed this?  Of course!  But I'm a realist, and understand the investment in casting and prototyping this would require.  It's unrealistic to expect, considering the niche market of the product.

 

 

[Katmandu]

I'll just say that I was planning to get the Orion throttle, but this single issue is the biggest showstopper for me. Yes, one can get used to anything, but I will only buy one throttle and this stuff would bug me no end. OPPOSITE angle on the throttle grip is not just some little tidbit out of place. Waiting for VKB and maybe Orion F-16 throttle now.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Katmandu

[The LT]

The startup panel switches are fine, although they lack the feeling of quality present on the TM Warthog throttle.

Having disassembled WW panels myself, I must say that WW switches are of higher quality than TMWH ones. The eng/ign motor 3-pos switches and the left throttle lighting switch on the WH are notoriously bad.

[War_Pig]

13 minutes ago, The LT said:

 

Having disassembled WW panels myself, I must say that WW switches are of higher quality than TMWH ones. The eng/ign motor 3-pos switches and the left throttle lighting switch on the WH are notoriously bad.

I’ll take your word for it, I can only speculate.  That said I’ve had my warthog for years and had no issues.  The feeling of the switches on the warthog is much like those in a real airplane.  Very authoritative click, takes some force.  The winwing lacks that feeling, and they can be switched by accident.  That’s all I’m saying, I haven’t had any actual quality issues with either product.

 

Why did you disassemble your winwing?

Edited September 5, 2021 by War_Pig

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, War_Pig said:

I’ll take your word for it, I can only speculate.  That said I’ve had my warthog for years and had no issues.  The feeling of the switches on the warthog is much like those in a real airplane.  Very authoritative click, takes some force.  The winwing lacks that feeling, and they can be switched by accident.  That’s all I’m saying, I haven’t had any actual quality issues with either product.

 

Why did you disassemble your winwing?

 

 

Actually a bunch of the switches on the WH are wrong tactile wise. I.e. china hat and others. 

[The LT]

I’ll take your word for it, I can only speculate.  That said I’ve had my warthog for years and had no issues.  The feeling of the switches on the warthog is much like those in a real airplane.  Very authoritative click, takes some force.  The winwing lacks that feeling, and they can be switched by accident.  That’s all I’m saying, I haven’t had any actual quality issues with either product.
 
Why did you disassemble your winwing?

IMHO, both ww and tm switches are consumer grade and have very little in common with real ones, tactile feedback included. They are both adequate for sim needs though. A common failure in TM throttles are the lighting switch and sticky IGN/Motor springloaded switches.

I disassembled my WW panels to replace all silver screws with black ones. :)

[01G8R]

After using my Orion Throttle for some time this issue bothered me enough to do something about it.  I have machined plates to angle the throttle so it is comfortable to use for an extended period of time.  Direct replacement for the original plates using stock hardware.  No modifications needed.  CNC machined out of 6061 Aluminum.  I have them available for sale on my website.

https://simstix.com/products/winwing-orion-angled-throttle-plates

 

[FZG_Immel]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:59 PM, 01G8R said:

After using my Orion Throttle for some time this issue bothered me enough to do something about it.  I have machined plates to angle the throttle so it is comfortable to use for an extended period of time.  Direct replacement for the original plates using stock hardware.  No modifications needed.  CNC machined out of 6061 Aluminum.  I have them available for sale on my website.

https://simstix.com/products/winwing-orion-angled-throttle-plates

 

how did I not see this post before !!!!

 

just a question. Do you confirm we can still move the throttle past one another, in both directions ? seems like the fix to this was to slighly increase the gap between both throttle heads.

 

thank you ! Ordering tomorrow !!!

Edited October 26, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[01G8R]

Yes, the throttles can still move past each other in both directions with the plates installed.

[MelkorBorgir]

just got my set for my orion throttle....fantastic. Only one suggestion would be that the hole for the insert for the throttle connector (that holds the 2 throttles together) is a bit snug and needs to be slightly larger. it was easily fixeds with a file.

On 10/26/2021 at 7:51 PM, 01G8R said:

Yes, the throttles can still move past each other in both directions with the plates installed.

 

[HuggyBear]

Same here: Much better angle for the throttle handles, my whole palm now rests on both throttles.

Also the same: The hole for the throttle lock is too small for the locking mech to fit, I may enlarge it later.

[01G8R]

The plates were designed around the lock on the two Orion Throttles we have here.  Most customers have indicated their lock fits, but a few have said the hole is too small.  We have enlarged this hole on current production so this shouldn't be an issue for anyone in the future.

[Oban]

16 hours ago, 01G8R said:

The plates were designed around the lock on the two Orion Throttles we have here.  Most customers have indicated their lock fits, but a few have said the hole is too small.  We have enlarged this hole on current production so this shouldn't be an issue for anyone in the future.

What's the shipping cost to Thailand sir?

[01G8R]

10 hours ago, Oban said:

What's the shipping cost to Thailand sir?

You can get a shipping quote directly on our website at www.simstix.com

Edited November 5, 2021 by 01G8R

[Oban]

I have to weigh up the pro's and cons (see what I did there? lol) the shipping cost is pretty reasonable, but I have a feeling the Thailand customs might slap an import tax onto it, and I'd end up paying double the actual value.

I like the concept/idea, I just need to see if I can come up with an alternative option

[Callsign JoNay]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:37 PM, FZG_Immel said:

how did I not see this post before !!!!

 

just a question. Do you confirm we can still move the throttle past one another, in both directions ? seems like the fix to this was to slighly increase the gap between both throttle heads.

 

thank you ! Ordering tomorrow !!!

 

It looks more than slightly increased to me. That might bug me even more than the stock reverse angle.

 

Are there any videos available to show the left and right throttles being moved past each other? 

[01G8R]

7 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

It looks more than slightly increased to me. That might bug me even more than the stock reverse angle.

 

Are there any videos available to show the left and right throttles being moved past each other? 

If my notes are correct the gap increased about .29" over the stock gap with no spacers.  If you are running the stock spacers then it only gets .090" wider.  No, I don't have any videos.  When the throttles travel past each other with my plates there is about 0.050" clearance between them at the closest point. 

I've sold a couple hundred sets of the plates and no one has expressed a concern with the wider gap.  The plates are designed to keep the throttles aligned with each other even though the gap is wider so that you never feel the larger gap in your hand.  The current batch of plates is almost sold out and I don't know when/if I will make more in the future. 

[CaptHawk]

Maybe sell the Idea to winning and they could sell it as an add-on for those that "need" it

Nice work BTW!

 

[Katmandu]

Is this issue still present in Winwing Orion 2? Would be pretty strange if it was as it's the most glaring fault with their Orion1 F/A-18 grip.

 

[FZG_Immel]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, 01G8R said:

If my notes are correct the gap increased about .29" over the stock gap with no spacers.  If you are running the stock spacers then it only gets .090" wider.  No, I don't have any videos.  When the throttles travel past each other with my plates there is about 0.050" clearance between them at the closest point. 

I've sold a couple hundred sets of the plates and no one has expressed a concern with the wider gap.  The plates are designed to keep the throttles aligned with each other even though the gap is wider so that you never feel the larger gap in your hand.  The current batch of plates is almost sold out and I don't know when/if I will make more in the future. 

for some reason, as the starter of this thread, i stopped playing for a while and totally forgot to order a set, just to try. 

01G8R. do you confirm you still have a couple and that I can order ?

KR

Patrick

[01G8R]

2 hours ago, FZG_Immel said:

for some reason, as the starter of this thread, i stopped playing for a while and totally forgot to order a set, just to try. 

01G8R. do you confirm you still have a couple and that I can order ?

KR

Patrick

Yes, if they are in stock on the website we have them.

[Brother_Leb]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:26 PM, Katmandu said:

Is this issue still present in Winwing Orion 2? Would be pretty strange if it was as it's the most glaring fault with their Orion1 F/A-18 grip.

 

My Orion 2 hasn't shipped yet, so I can't confirm this, but from the photos I've seen, I think this is still present on the Orion 2. The angle it's off by might be slightly shallower than on Orion 1, but from what I can tell they have not canted the grips outboard as on the real hornet throttle per the OP's concern.

The new Orion 2 design does seem to create a problem for 01G8R's aftermarket part though, I think. The way the new finger lift kit is designed to wrap around the throttle arms would mean that his (really awesome) custom machined plates won't work with the new design. I think the finger lift kit is removable, so if you took it off, you could probably still use the custom plates, but I don't think they will work together from what I can tell based on the pics on WW's website.

I'm not worried myself (I'm upgrading from a TM T16000 throttle, which has no angle at all so this issue doesn't bother me personally), but I know it's a big problem for some of the folks here.