F-14B acceleration correct?

[captain_dalan]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:28 AM, Victory205 said:

Tuesday. 

Hopefully not the same Tuesday as that one when M. Bison burned  Chun Li's village!

[Kula66]

9 hours ago, Victory205 said:

I don’t have an F14B/D low speed acceleration matrix like the F18 and F14A, so can’t provide a comparison.

Ok ... many thanks all same 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Kula66

[Donut]

14 hours ago, Victory205 said:

Also, referencing the OP’s drag race that began on the runway aren’t valid given the DCS wheel drag anomalies. 

 

Again, we’re working on all of this.

Roger that, thank you for all the feedback.  I was unaware of the wheel drag anomaly in DCS.

 

We are very fortunate to have your active presence and knowledge on the forums.  You and Heatblur keep up the amazing work.  I will standby for the updated FM.

[Figaro9]

There is zero interpretation on my part regarding those numbers above for the F18 sep nor any chart reading. It is simply copy paste of numbers given by the dod in hearings 1999. That’s the level of precision those guys use to work. 

And it greatly shows that there is not a easy answer to the f14/f18 acceleration question since there are many variants and lots.

 

And the numbers for the f14 are from the dod (1985 hearings) too. It is however a graph that compares the d with the a model.  You can therefore compare different sep states at different mach numbers. Peak acceleration at M0.9 is marked as 640ft/s for the d (what a lousy level of precision they worked back in 85) . And it shows that the d model only has a higher sep up to ~M 1.050001.

When I interpret that chart, I do it even more precisely   and therefore mark them with a ~ , like:

Sep at 10kft , Mach 0.6, Standard day, 60% Fuel:

F-14A TF 30: Ps ~320,0000 ft/s (4 /4 )

F-14D F110 : Ps  ~405,0001 ft/s (4 /4 )

Sep at 10kft , Mach 1.2, Standard day, 60% Fuel:

F-14A TF 30: Ps ~220, 0002 ft/s (4 /4 )

F-14D F110 : Ps  ~200,0000 ft/s (4 /4)

 

Since there is no graph I can not give you corresponding read outs for the f18. But there is an envelope chart in the gao report for the epe Hornet. With some math you can convert the sep from kts/s to ft/s. But the level of precision doing so would not be on par with the above data, so I Iet it be...

[Spurts]

so according to that data the F-14A has more oompf than the B once through the mach?  I knew that was true at the top end but I figured that was once past 1.5M or so.

[Slant]

On 4/16/2021 at 10:31 PM, Victory205 said:

Also, referencing the OP’s drag race that began on the runway aren’t valid given the DCS wheel drag anomalies. 

 

Again, we’re working on all of this.

 

You probably can't say anything specific, but the wheel drag is buggin me a bit, too. It seems to be a general DCS issue, so an ED problem. So when you say "we're working on all of this", I presume that does not include the glue on tarmac (and the grass, oh god the grass...)?

[Southernbear]

On 4/20/2021 at 12:36 AM, Spurts said:

so according to that data the F-14A has more oompf than the B once through the mach?  I knew that was true at the top end but I figured that was once past 1.5M or so.

I would assume the TF-30s may have a greater boost from the ramjet effect then the F110s did which would result in the better thrust above mach. 

[Hector45]

Well glad it wasn't just me suddenly getting worse at BFM. I can't seem to out rate an F-18 anymore (among other aircraft) and if I bleed speed below 300 knts, I can never seem to recover the speed unless I stop my turn resulting in a loss every time.

[maxsin72]

I think it would be kind if HB will give us an update about fixing the FM, more then 6 months has been passed and "not anytime soon", n my opinion, it's no more an acceptable answer, thank you

[fat creason]

We're working hard on it and have been for a while, best answer I can give you at this time. I'll provide more info when the time is appropriate.

[maxsin72]

2 hours ago, fat creason said:

We're working hard on it and have been for a while, best answer I can give you at this time. I'll provide more info when the time is appropriate.

This is a good news, thank you for your reply. I think it's really important to provide update about your work in progress because many of us like really much bfm.

[fat creason]

16 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

This is a good news, thank you for your reply. I think it's really important to provide update about your work in progress because many of us like really much bfm.

 

If you "really like BFM", there is nothing currently stopping you from doing so, only your personal choice. The current FM is not that far off and it certainly isn't causing you lose fights, especially at BFM speeds. Please read this post if you haven't already. If anyone is personally choosing to not fly the Tomcat right now, I'm not losing sleep over it and it isn't going to make work on the FM go any faster. I'll give an update on the FM when there is appropriate information to share. Just know that most of us work in our free time (this is a passion project, not a full time job) and we're committed to bringing you the most accurate public F-14 simulation that's ever been created; it will be done when it's done. That's the best answer I can give at this time, I apologize if that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

Edited May 6, 2021 by fat creason

[maxsin72]

8 hours ago, fat creason said:

 

If you "really like BFM", there is nothing currently stopping you from doing so, only your personal choice. The current FM is not that far off and it certainly isn't causing you lose fights, especially at BFM speeds. Please read this post if you haven't already. If anyone is personally choosing to not fly the Tomcat right now, I'm not losing sleep over it and it isn't going to make work on the FM go any faster. I'll give an update on the FM when there is appropriate information to share. Just know that most of us work in our free time (this is a passion project, not a full time job) and we're committed to bringing you the most accurate public F-14 simulation that's ever been created; it will be done when it's done. That's the best answer I can give at this time, I apologize if that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

 

I'm sorry but your answer is completely wrong. Everybody who play with me in multiplayer on BFM servers almost every day, knows very well that i fly always and only the Tomcat. Does not matter if i lose or if i win: i fly only the Tomcat because i share with you your same passion, do you understand?

I flew hundreds of hours in bfm with the "new" FM during last 6 months, always with the F14, so i think i know what i'm talking about!

It's for sure that the current FM certainly is causing people to lose some fights: the plane is "tanked", it lose 1,5 degrees/second in sustained turn and it does not accelerate as it can.

For example, the best F18 players are able to outmanouver the F14 simply continuosly turning and climbing so that at the end they are able to do of the F14 "meat on the table". And you can be sure that in a fight during which you turn all the time at the maximun sustained turn rate till you have the last drop of fuel, and when i say all the time i mean exactly that, 1,5 degrees/second make a huge difference.

I understand very well you do this job during your free time and i'm gratefull and i thank you for this, but please don't minimize the problem and try to understand that, after more then six months, it's completely not good to answer that the FM will be fixed "not anytime soon" or that you will give updates if there will be.
Sharing some more details, could help to wait.
I really don't want you losing your sleep over the FM  because  you need to be very rested to do a good job

[Karon]

13 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

I'm sorry but your answer is completely wrong. Everybody who play with me in multiplayer on BFM servers almost every day, knows very well that i fly always and only the Tomcat. Does not matter if i lose or if i win: i fly only the Tomcat because i share with you your same passion, do you understand?

I flew hundreds of hours in bfm with the "new" FM during last 6 months, always with the F14, so i think i know what i'm talking about!

It's for sure that the current FM certainly is causing people to lose some fights: the plane is "tanked", it lose 1,5 degrees/second in sustained turn and it does not accelerate as it can.

For example, the best F18 players are able to outmanouver the F14 simply continuosly turning and climbing so that at the end they are able to do of the F14 "meat on the table". And you can be sure that in a fight during which you turn all the time at the maximun sustained turn rate till you have the last drop of fuel, and when i say all the time i mean exactly that, 1,5 degrees/second make a huge difference.

I understand very well you do this job during your free time and i'm gratefull and i thank you for this, but please don't minimize the problem and try to understand that, after more then six months, it's completely not good to answer that the FM will be fixed "not anytime soon" or that you will give updates if there will be.
Sharing some more details, could help to wait.
I really don't want you losing your sleep over the FM  because  you need to be very rested to do a good job

I don't mean to sound too simplistic or dismissive, but this is a perfect example of the pros and the cons of EA. The F-14 was launched in an excellent state features and bugs wise, but it is still WIP: there are still some bugs to smash and things to polish; and that takes time, more than some people can expect.

 

You say you are still waiting after 6 months. Well, if it makes you feel better, I stopped all tests and studies on the '54 and WCS when they announced the new API in OCTOBER 2019 and, for a reason or another, I'm still waiting. That's 19 months and counting

 

So, my point is, if it's taking time, there is a reason. The devs acknowledged the issues, and they are, quoting, "working hard on it and have been for a while". Unfortunately, we can only wait and focus on something else if the handicap of the unpolished FM is too much of a burden.

[Hummingbird]

The F-14 is losing fights it shouldn't because of its current lack of performance, esp. in the sustained realm, that much I can confirm. Atm it's outrated even by the F-15 at its own best maneuvering speeds, ~0.5-0.7 mach. The F/A-18, which it used to be able to outrate sustained (as it should), it no longer can. So the change is definitely very visible and felt by those of us who BFM a lot.

 

That said I don't have any criticism leveled at the devs other than that which I put forth 6-5 month ago, which is that FM changes, like the one made 6 months ago, should be held back until they don't affect the performance of the aircraft to such a degree, at least when it comes to maneuvering & acceleration performance at subsonic speeds. Because if there's something frequent BFM'ers don't like, it's when their favorite aircraft isn't living up to the available charts - which, irrespective of wether the whole envelope was test flown or not, are still by far the most accurate performance figures available, and thus the FM has to match these as close as possible - which I have absolute faith Creason is also working towards.

 

But like I've said before, this is the best module I've bought for DCS, and the attention to detail that has been given to this module clearly shows it's a labour of love by HB team, hence I'm sure they're as anxious to get the fixes done as we are waiting for them. As such I have a lot of patience when it comes to fixes for this module, it's just I regret that this last one wasn't held back.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Katj]

so according to that data the F-14A has more oompf than the B once through the mach?  I knew that was true at the top end but I figured that was once past 1.5M or so.

The data is for 10 kft.

My guess is that at 35 kft your Mach number might be closer to the point where the A gains the advantage.

[maxsin72]

7 hours ago, Karon said:

I don't mean to sound too simplistic or dismissive, but this is a perfect example of the pros and the cons of EA. The F-14 was launched in an excellent state features and bugs wise, but it is still WIP: there are still some bugs to smash and things to polish; and that takes time, more than some people can expect.

 

You say you are still waiting after 6 months. Well, if it makes you feel better, I stopped all tests and studies on the '54 and WCS when they announced the new API in OCTOBER 2019 and, for a reason or another, I'm still waiting. That's 19 months and counting

 

So, my point is, if it's taking time, there is a reason. The devs acknowledged the issues, and they are, quoting, "working hard on it and have been for a while". Unfortunately, we can only wait and focus on something else if the handicap of the unpolished FM is too much of a burden.

Untill november 2020 the flight model was good, there was only the need to fix the speed at which flaps break and that was been fixed. The problem was that the FM was changed with the problems everybody knows. Also i've never understood why HB didn't roll back manteining only the correct flaps break speed.

I know HB is working hard but i also think that if they update us with something 1 time every month this could help to be patient. It's really a pain every time that for few degrees i'm not able to win a dogfight, but, as already told, i will always flight only with F14.

Edited May 7, 2021 by maxsin72

[Skysurfer]

31 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Untill november 2020 the flight model was good, there was only the need to fix the speed at which flaps break and that was been fixed. The problem was that the FM was changed with the problems everybody knows. Also i've never understood why HB didn't roll back manteining only the correct flaps break speed.

I know HB is working hard but i also think that if they update us with something 1 time every month this could help to be patient. It's really a pain every time that for few degrees i'm not able to win a dogfight, but, as already told, i will always flight only with F14.

 

 

It's unfortunate that an unintended code adjustment and resulting bug doesn't get fixed for 6 months but I wouldn't call it too big of a deal even in BFM (adapt and fight different, act as if you had stoes on the jet). We know they are working on it and it'll be fixed and in the same ballpark it was before eventually. If I learned anything from HB by owning the Viggen and Tomcat is that you need a *LOT* of patience.  

Edited May 7, 2021 by Skysurfer

[maxsin72]

3 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

It's unfortunate that an unintended code adjustment and resulting bug doesn't get fixed for 6 months but I wouldn't call it too big of a deal even in BFM (adapt and fight different, act as if you had stoes on the jet). We know they are working on it and it'll be fixed and in the same ballpark it was before eventually. If I learned anything from HB by owning the Viggen and Tomcat is that you need a *LOT* of patience.  

 

I know HB is is trying his best, i'll try my best to have more patience

[Karon]

57 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Untill november 2020 the flight model was good, there was only the need to fix the speed at which flaps break and that was been fixed. The problem was that the FM was changed with the problems everybody knows. Also i've never understood why HB didn't roll back manteining only the correct flaps break speed.

I know HB is working hard but i also think that if they update us with something 1 time every month this could help to be patient. It's really a pain every time that for few degrees i'm not able to win a dogfight, but, as already told, i will always flight only with F14.

 

It was good, OK, but perhaps it was due to a number of imperfect parameters that are now being tweaked to improve the FM. If the solution were as simple as rolling back, I'm pretty sure they'd have done it already.

 

That being said, it's not that the F-14 is crashing DCS or the module is completely inoperative, it's a minor aspect, when everything is considered, that is being worked on. It sucks that is the part you enjoy the most, but perhaps you can take the opportunity and learn different aspects of the aircraft, exactly as I'm doing as well. Worst-case scenario, you can always level the field by playing a mirror match vs another F-14.

[captain_dalan]

Like my colleagues above mentioned, this isn't about winning or losing on its own. That will always depend on who and how you are fighting . I.E. when i fight the guys i usually fly with (my closest friends) i regularly win in the F-14A, even when they are flying F-15C's, MiG-29's or F-16C's. But if you use that as an argument that the FM is ok.......well it isn't. And it shows when the other side is flying like they should. Right now, staying at 310-350 in two planes (one of them being an F-14 and the other an F-18) results in one of them consistently out climbing and or out turning the other. And i'll let you guessing which plane does what.

Can you win? Yes. Can you outsmart the other guy? Yes. Can you win of both sides play their best cards? Nope, because your best hand is flawed. And i just come from a  BFM in which i started offensive. I didn't overshoot. Energy management was not an issue. Closure was 0 between us, so he wasn't  faster or slower. Yet, at 330 i watched as this bandit slowly wins angles on me every second of the fight. At best i could hope i'd run out of fuel before he drops on my 6. Oh i gunned him down the next fight for sure, but not by flying the corner, i can tell you that right away. So if the plane flies wrong where it is supposed to fly, something is wrong.

You can argue it is or has been wrong at trans sonic speeds or supersonic. But nobody fights there. And even if they did, a fraction of g is nothing at 600 knots. At 300? It can cost you integer values of your performance. At to that the uphill part of your envelope and you are in some serious doo-doo....

[jcdata]

Is the FM derived via external means? Via DLL or anything? Just curious...

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[fat creason]

On a semi-related note, I have reviewed all the stores drag data (primarily for AIM-9/AIM-7/AIM-54 and their launchers/adapters) and correlated it to drag index data in the performance manual. You can expect significantly reduced drag for all tunnel mounted missiles and slight drag reductions for shoulder mounted AIM-7s and AIM-9s when the FM update comes out. @Victory205and I are making good progress on tuning airframe drag primarily in the transonic and supersonic regions (the magnitude of deceleration is too small on power chops). Thrust re-tune comes next once we've decided on the drag changes. A fixed bug that was preventing partial deployments in the automatic maneuvering slat/flap schedule will help turns and maneuvering above ~10 units AOA in the 0.5-0.85 mach range depending on altitude. Obviously, more tuning will be done to dial in excess power throughout the EM charts once thrust has been tuned to match level flight accelerations and max mach, but the above items needed to be correct before this can be done.

Edited May 14, 2021 by fat creason

[Spurts]

Thanks @fat creason!

[The_Doktor]

This Forum is getting more and more ridicules. People asking for "in there opinion" most realistic FM to fight unrealistic multiplayer dogfights. Turning 2 minutes at 7 g constant until fuel is empty. outrateing the f-18 in a f-14. what are we talking about?? And always telling the developers what to do and what is the only truth.

 

I think ED should rename DCS in Digital Circle Simulator.