Wizard_03 Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 3:58 AM, SCPanda said: Yep, ED needs to learn from Deka and Heatblur. Or hire more people to do the job. "EA is a long process"... I have heard this from ED so many times.... Oh Yeah I'm sure everyone would prefer to have the FM wildly change every patch, mixed in with occasional exploding engines and magical radar implementation for the F-16 too. Let's not even talk about both of those third party's missile APIs. In all seriousness, patience was and is being rewarded for the hornet no doubt the viper will get there too, I have faith. 1 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilbur81 Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) On 4/21/2021 at 4:01 PM, Youda said: Btw, this is what happens to you when you think you have enough energy advantage over the Hornet. Youda, That Tomcat lost because the Hornet (with zero energy) has nose authority at those slow speeds... not to mention a ridiculous lucky shot outside the pipper. As to the 10.5 G pulled.... I still personally consider paddle-switching in the Hornet to be cheating and don't ever do it, but to each their own. My guess is that the majority of folks on the forums here that think the Hornet is whooping up on them too much in BFM are falling victim to Hornet opponents that pull the paddle switch... which I think is dumb. Even GS pulls the paddle switch in one of his recent Hornet vids. Sheesh... Edited April 26, 2021 by wilbur81 2 i7 8700K @ Stock - Win10 64 - 32 RAM - RTX 3080 12gb OC - 55 inch 4k Display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) Yeah, that's that good ol' exploit lovin' gamer mentality. ''Sure, my plane would be permanently grounded in real life, but I got the kill, hurdur! RTB and spawn a new plane!'' @@ This from the same people obsessively quibbling over fm charts. They want ''realizm and immurzun'' then proceed to immediately throw it out the window @@ And concur about the lucky shot. Physics don't suddenly change because you're flying a hornet, the tomcat got shot because he flew in a straight enough line for long enough to actually get hit from ''a mile away'', bullets still have travel time, even in DCS, the only way you get ''sniped'' at long range is by holding still for it. Edited April 26, 2021 by Mars Exulte 2 Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilbur81 Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 52 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said: And concur about the lucky shot. Physics don't suddenly change because you're flying a hornet, the tomcat got shot because he flew in a straight enough line for long enough to actually get hit from ''a mile away'', bullets still have travel time, even in DCS, the only way you get ''sniped'' at long range is by holding still for it. Indeed. i7 8700K @ Stock - Win10 64 - 32 RAM - RTX 3080 12gb OC - 55 inch 4k Display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) The sad part is you don't need the paddle switch to win. Like ever. If your needing to use it too win; your either not fighting the hornet too its strengths, or you messed up and are in bacon saving mode. Either scenario makes you bad at BFM. Edited April 27, 2021 by Wizard_03 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilbur81 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Wizard_03 said: The sad part is you don't need the paddle switch to win. Why is that sad? The Viper is not in any way an invincible BFM fighter. Eagle drivers, Tomcat drivers, and Hornet drivers have all beaten the Viper in real world DACT. And the Viper has waxed these guys many times as well. These 4th gen (or 3.5 gen for the non-D Tomcat as they say) fighters are all pretty close in the BFM realm when they play to their strengths. Their strengths (and weaknesses) are just different. Enter the merge slow (or end up slow) in a Viper against a Hornet with a good pilot... You're dead. Hornet pilot's don't need the paddle switch in real life because Hornet pilots don't use the paddle switch in real life. Edited April 27, 2021 by wilbur81 i7 8700K @ Stock - Win10 64 - 32 RAM - RTX 3080 12gb OC - 55 inch 4k Display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feipan Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 On 4/27/2021 at 2:54 AM, wilbur81 said: Why is that sad? The Viper is not in any way an invincible BFM fighter. Eagle drivers, Tomcat drivers, and Hornet drivers have all beaten the Viper in real world DACT. And the Viper has waxed these guys many times as well. These 4th gen (or 3.5 gen for the non-D Tomcat as they say) fighters are all pretty close in the BFM realm when they play to their strengths. Their strengths (and weaknesses) are just different. Enter the merge slow (or end up slow) in a Viper against a Hornet with a good pilot... You're dead. Hornet pilot's don't need the paddle switch in real life because Hornet pilots don't use the paddle switch in real life. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilbur81 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, feipan said: Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. And a good pilot in a Hornet can eat a good Viper pilot half the time. Edited April 28, 2021 by wilbur81 i7 8700K @ Stock - Win10 64 - 32 RAM - RTX 3080 12gb OC - 55 inch 4k Display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snappy Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) On 4/26/2021 at 6:49 PM, Mars Exulte said: Yeah, that's that good ol' exploit lovin' gamer mentality. ''Sure, my plane would be permanently grounded in real life, but I got the kill, hurdur! RTB and spawn a new plane!'' @@ This from the same people obsessively quibbling over fm charts. They want ''realizm and immurzun'' then proceed to immediately throw it out the window @@ Excellently put Like it. Personally I think, ED should've just left out the paddle switch's function. I get that this would likely freak out people who obsess about simulating 100% of the systems (like this is ever achieved) , but its a function of the FCS thats probably never used during a pilots career in reality or only in .025%(or insert whatever low number you like) of all hornet flights and then likely only to prevent an immiment ground collision. By leaving out the paddle function, the FCS simulation might drop down to 90 or so percent, but the amount of realism in how the aircraft is flown within its design limits would go up like 400% , especially in MP. Anyway, ED did it differently. Edited April 28, 2021 by Snappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilbur81 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Snappy said: Personally I think, ED should've just left out the paddle switch's function. Fair enough... Having the paddle switch is realistic as you said. In the name of realism: The paddle switch should be there. But if pilots don't use it in the real-world, it would be realistic to not use it in DCS... For me personally, it is more of a sportsmanship thing. If I'm BFM'ing or otherwise fighting an opponent using the Paddle Switch, there's ZERO satisfaction in winning because, in my mind, I've cheated. Would a real Hornet pilot in a real war situation use it to escape dying? Of course. But in a game like DCS, it feels like I'm not truly being good in the Hornet. Now, if USN Hornets had the FCS and airframe modifications that the Swiss and Finnish Hornets had, watch out ALL you 4th Gen fighters... 9 Gs comn' atchya. Edited April 28, 2021 by wilbur81 1 i7 8700K @ Stock - Win10 64 - 32 RAM - RTX 3080 12gb OC - 55 inch 4k Display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkman222 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Of course the F16 FM still needs some work. But as long as people play DCS like a game, they will use the paddle, they will over G the F15, they will fly the F14 pulling 14 Gs. I guess thats why its called F14 But what can you do? Participate in folds of honor where there is people watching and forcing you fly realistic. I would say the aircraft people cant currently cheat in are the ones with fly by wire including the SU 27 /33 where the paddle is allowed in regular operation for cobra manovers which often are just a useless waste of energy in a dogfight. As long as you mix fly by wire aircraft with traditional controlled aircraft in a DCS dogfight you will always have the potential that cheating is possible. I mean what can you do on dogfight servers against it? Thats a question about game design here. Put in a script that makes an aircraft explode when it is over g'd ? Nobody will like that. Make the server send a message : tomcat XY has pulled 14 Gs? Will that embarass someone? I guess not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Oh, look, someone does exactly what I described and repeatedly killed a Hornet. It contradicts DCS FORUM META though, so clearly HAXORS. If you do your job right, even the dreaded paddle shouldn't matter. Contrary to popular belief, you can even win without pulling 15gs. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. Like I said before, I'll take a Viper, Fulcrum, or Eagle over a Hornet any day. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youda Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 "Oh look, there is one fight on youtube where F-18 is defeated by an F-16. That proves both aircrafts are equal capable". Ehmm... no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Youda said: "Oh look, there is one fight on youtube where F-18 is defeated by an F-16. That proves both aircrafts are equal capable". Ehmm... no. ''This information does not compute with my stat based meta. Error 404. Pull moar Gs, noob'' I give up. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 11, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 11, 2021 Lets maintain a little maturity in this discussion, no need to call people names, insult, etc. Thanks. (PS this is close to be closed) 2 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probad Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) conversely a poor pilot will always be on the losing end for all sorts of reasons, almost always not the aircraft's fault. gs is guilty of constant overshoots the consequences to which he ascribes to issues of turn performance if he isn't droning on about some one circle two circles red circles blue circles. is it the aircraft that's killing him? i think its mostly him killing himself because he doesn't understand pursuit geometry. instead i would rather just focus on the crux of the matter as relevant to this thread which is: 1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said: This phrase is technically representative of how 90+% of people fly, and in the case of the Hornet means it will come out on top more often than not as it favors this kind of flying. i think you are right on this point; rate just isn't as native as angles because the idea of giving slack to the enemy doesn't sell well to the lizard brain. Edited May 12, 2021 by probad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Everybody starts somewhere. I don't fault anybody (not even Youtubers), if they're not ''on the money'' with every utterance or move. I think GS videos are entertaining, not as annoying as soooome, and accessible for demonstrating to people what DCS is and that's what's most important. As for the terminology, yeah, I think people get overly focused on that. They're useful descriptors in some cases, but... yeah. I have never thought in terms of ''circles'' or named maneuvers, or conciously tried to perform certain ones, some of these terms I had never even heard of before I started hanging around here and reading stuff like Shaw's book. I just try to do whatever ''feels appropriate'' to avoid getting shot in the face, preferably while shooting the other guy in the face. Except for hammerheads. That one's my favorite, even if it occasionally gets me vigorously molested. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youda Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 I've re-read this thread from beginning and this really strikes me. So first you claim existence of a mighty energy-fighting tactic that makes the Viper win everytime (without demonstration of course because <excuses>), bulding up an image that we are all noobz with not enough knowledge while you are the only one here who knows something more - I almost trusted you on that one. And then you come back and post a video where the Hornet is very clearly defeated by his own mistakes and claim that to be a proof of Viper being superior. So must be either bluffing and not as knowledgeable as you pretent to be, or you are utterly biased in your thinking and not able to see the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Youda said: So first you claim existence of a mighty energy-fighting tactic that makes the Viper win everytime No, I didn't. I did advocate energy tactics being viable and that what gets most people killed is fighting the Hornet's fight. I argued that superior T/W is not ''practically useless'' in a dogfight and that people claiming something that absurd fundamentally misunderstand what a ''dogfight'' is. Your proposed argument is nothing new to me nor is DCS the first forum where I've seen it presented. Everybody else who said it was fundamentally wrong, too. For somebody who reread the whole thread you seem to be missing my core argument. 8 hours ago, Youda said: (without demonstration of course because <excuses>), Me not being willing to sit down personally and hold somebody's hand and compose youtube tutorials for them to win forum arguments should be surprising to absolutely nobody. At the end of the day, I really don't care what any of you think, and PC accessibility is secondary to that. I'm here to amuse myself and pass time when I'm bored. People have been writing about air combat for at least 110 years, and making Youtube videos for 15-20. There's plenty of material available. 8 hours ago, Youda said: bulding up an image that we are all noobz with not enough knowledge That's a reasonable assumption if you think T/W and acceleration are useless. Eveeybody starts somewhere, though. 8 hours ago, Youda said: while you are the only one here who knows something more Hardly. But I know that Hornets aren't invincible. 8 hours ago, Youda said: I almost trusted you on that one. I'm opinionated and easily frustrated when people make nonsense statements citing spreadsheets. Regardless, I'm not usually talking completely out my arse. 8 hours ago, Youda said: And then you come back and post a video where the Hornet is very clearly defeated by his own mistakes That is the direct cause of 99.9% of shootdowns circumstances notwithstanding. You're focusing too much on what the Hornet was doing and not enough on what the Viper was doing. GS skill or lack thereof is irrelevant. You wanted examples of what I.was trying to describe and that guy provided them very simply. The basic manner in which he flew is to be emulated when engaging a Hornet. Yes, the better flown the Hornet is the harder it will be to kill and the fewer mistakes he'll make and the quicker he'll respond to yours. But that is the approach you'll try to use, how successful it is will be circumstantial. 8 hours ago, Youda said: and claim that to be a proof of Viper being superior. Neither is superior. There is no such thing as an ''I win'' move. The Hornet is so popular because its manner of fighting is simple, intuitive, and easily replicated to good results even by inexperienced pilots. The point is it is not unbeatable or unavoidable that it wins, and by NOT flying against its greatest strengths you remove its low speed handling and high alpha post stall maneuverability from the equation, forcing it to fight with OTHER stats on its spreadsheet which may favor YOU. At the very least you eliminate the noobiest strategies and force the pilot to up his game. 8 hours ago, Youda said: or you are utterly biased in your thinking and not able to see the truth. I realise I'm flippant and sarcastic, and 90% of your posts are responding to that. It isn't black and white. I'm neither an expert nor an idiot. I am somebody that knows spreadsheet stats are of limited utility and that blanket statements like ''T/W and acceleration are useless'' are absurd. I'll try again. The Hornet favors the fast resolution, due to low speed high alpha handling if you both go in hard, cashing in energy, and somebody dies in the first 60 seconds, it will probably be you. You exploit your T/W by dragging the fight out. The planes are similar enough he can't just instakill you, he has to maneuver with you first. Your T/W advantage means each maneuver he's probably bleeding more and takes longer to get it back if you're flying the numbers just right. Logically, if the fight drags on, this should result in you accumulating more and more energy and gradually moving higher and faster compared to him. If you're ever able to force him to dump energy to dodge a shot that's ideal. Where the ''modern high thrust jet'' becomes a factor is in greatly reducing the margin for error. One mistake or 5-10 seconds of inattention can cost you everything you accumulate. Eating a snapshot is an ever present risk. Gettimg too far away is an auto reset. Once the planes merge somebody's gonna die. No, it's not easy. It is a knife edge with little margin for error. If he's any good he'll be trying to prevent it, and cause the performance margin is close he can if you're not supremely careful. But it is possible and they're not wholly unbeatable. If somebody ''paddleswitches'' or dumps flaps etc they are increasing your energy margin. If THEY miscalculate it can be irrecoverable, too. You want to know how to fight a Hornet (or any low speed, high alpha dogfighter) that's how. There is no magic move, no guarantee of victory, but that IS how you go about it. Who wins is up to you and him and who makes the first mistake. My whole point again, is merely that it's not impossible. The guys thinking it is, or that habitually rely on exploits like over g are exactly the kind energy fighting will work best on because they underestimate its effectiveness and rely on brute force. As for thinking I'm a phony, that's fine. As I said, I don't care what anyone thinks =) I'm structuring my employment to have a life again, so you'll definitely get to see me in the tournies this year starting Augustish. You're welcome to jeer anytime I get shot down. Please use creative insults while doing so :p 1 Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youda Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: Me not being willing to sit down personally and hold somebody's hand and compose youtube tutorials for them to win forum arguments should be surprising to absolutely nobody. At the end of the day, I really don't care what any of you think, and PC accessibility is secondary to that. I'm here to amuse myself and pass time when I'm bored. People have been writing about air combat for at least 110 years, and making Youtube videos for 15-20. There's plenty of material available. If you are not willing to record a dogfight where you win by using your tactic, why are you willing to keep arguing about it? If it's a waste of time to make one simple recording from a game, how is it not waste of time writing these long answers? If you don't care what others think, why don't you just quit arguing and leave. 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: That is the direct cause of 99.9% of shootdowns circumstances notwithstanding. You're focusing too much on what the Hornet was doing and not enough on what the Viper was doing. GS skill or lack thereof is irrelevant. You wanted examples of what I.was trying to describe and that guy provided them very simply. The basic manner in which he flew is to be emulated when engaging a Hornet. Yes, the better flown the Hornet is the harder it will be to kill and the fewer mistakes he'll make and the quicker he'll respond to yours. But that is the approach you'll try to use, how successful it is will be circumstantial. Are you serious? So the fact that the Hornet was flown badly does not mean anything to the validity of the video to this argument?? I managed to kill a Sabre in a P-36 because he insisted on a low speed knife-fight, so according to your own logic this proves these 2 planes are evenly matched and correctly flown P-36 can always defeat a F-86. Really?? 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: Hardly. But I know that Hornets aren't invincible. "aren't invincible" does not equal to "are evenly matched". 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: Neither is superior. There is no such thing as an ''I win'' move. The Hornet is so popular because its manner of fighting is simple, intuitive, and easily replicated to good results even by inexperienced pilots. The point is it is not unbeatable or unavoidable that it wins, and by NOT flying against its greatest strengths you remove its low speed handling and high alpha post stall maneuverability from the equation, forcing it to fight with OTHER stats on its spreadsheet which may favor YOU. At the very least you eliminate the noobiest strategies and force the pilot to up his game. I have never said, neither did anyone else here, that Hornet is unbeatable. My statement was supposed to be that with 2 equally skilled pilots both playing their jets well, the one flying Hornet will win more than 50% of time. And i saw nothing from you which would disprove this. All your arguments are basically strawman, because their tring to defeat a claim a Hornet is invincible which i did not say. 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: Your T/W advantage means each maneuver he's probably bleeding more and takes longer to get it back if you're flying the numbers just right. And this is exactly the point where you are wrong. In these jets, wing design and resulting induced drag plays bigger role than T/W. It is easily possible and we can see that on many planes (currently including the F-16) that a plane with higher T/W bleeds speed faster in a turn, which means the T/W is basically only useful for straight line acceleration or straight line climbing, and any kind of maneuvering is in the Hornet's favor. The fact that F-16 bleeds more speed in turn than F-18 in DCS was independently proven by many people on this forum including myself. 2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: If you're ever able to force him to dump energy to dodge a shot that's ideal. It's much more likely that you will be forced by him to dodge a shot, because he will almost certainly get you in his gunsight first, which makes your (F-16) situation even worse. And if you like to use dogfighting videos as a reference for comparing plane's capabilities, i suggest you to take a look at this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrqR2OL_jAYNm2suQaPM5cQ There is plenty of F-18 vs F-16 study material, where in most cases it does not end well for the F-16. Probably most notably here, where the F-16 tries to energy fight like you say it should but instead it just gets sniped from below Edited May 12, 2021 by Youda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Youda said: If you are not willing to record a dogfight where you win by using your tactic, why are you willing to keep arguing about it? Because I am sitting here with time to kill? 1 hour ago, Youda said: If it's a waste of time to make one simple recording from a game, how is it not waste of time writing these long answers? It takes a lot of dicking around to record a decent video, edit it down to essentials, and usually a couple hours to upload it (I don't know where you are but USA upload speeds are garbage). Me spending five minutes typing is not even remotely comparable to that degree of effort. 1 hour ago, Youda said: If you don't care what others think, why don't you just quit arguing and leave. Because I want to? Whether or not I'm losing sleep over your opinion is not related to whether or not I think the topic is interesting. 1 hour ago, Youda said: Are you serious? So the fact that the Hornet was flown badly does not mean anything to the validity of the video to this argument?? You continue to fundamentally miss the point, which I'm beginning to think is borderline deliberate. It is examples of the basic tactics and strategies a person should be striving for. Any video is fundamentally useless except as demonstration because circumstances eill always vary. You need to be able to observe a demonstration, recognise the principles you're seeing, and try to apply them yourself. That's literally how ''watching a video of somebody else doing a thing'' works. So yes, GS skill is irrelevant in that context, as the relevant material was the behavior of the Viper. 1 hour ago, Youda said: these 2 planes are evenly matched No, they're not. They're superior in different areas. In this case the differences are substantial enough that it can be extremely difficult to capitalise on your ''advantage'' because of the gross disparity. 1 hour ago, Youda said: and correctly flown P-36 can always defeat a F-86. Really?? No. You're trying very hard to be obstinate and miss the point. 1 hour ago, Youda said: "aren't invincible" does not equal to "are evenly matched". They're not evenly matched. The Hornet is better at low speed high alpha, the Viper at higher speed energy retention. They are not so grossly dissimilar as a P-36 and F-86 as to be ''incapable of bridging the gap''. Both are capable aircraft and can cross over into each other's realms... but each is better in its own realm than in the other. You can use any aircraft in any manner, depending on circumstance. 1 hour ago, Youda said: I have never said, neither did anyone else here, that Hornet is unbeatable. That is very much the ''why even both flying anything else, Hornet meta iz the bestest'' tone of this thread, yes. 1 hour ago, Youda said: My statement was supposed to be that with 2 equally skilled pilots both playing their jets well, the one flying Hornet will win more than 50% of time. If by ''equally skilled'' you mean ''equally determined to engage in the same fight, which naturally favors one over the other'', then yes. Equally skilled does not mean they should fight in the same fashion. 1 hour ago, Youda said: And i saw nothing from you which would disprove this. Sorry, it's not helpful for you. If you want to compare stats and pre-judge the winner, tis up to you. 1 hour ago, Youda said: All your arguments are basically strawman, because their tring to defeat a claim a Hornet is invincible which i did not say. No, they're saying a Viper cannot beat a Hornet in a low speed knife fight and it should never even attempt to do so. 1 hour ago, Youda said: And this is exactly the point where you are wrong. In these jets, wing design and resulting induced drag plays bigger role than T/W. It can, yes. T/W combines with drag to determine overall acceleration blah blah blah. I don't have the DCS lua files open to compare decimal points right now. I'm afraid we'll have to stick to more simplistic generalities. 1 hour ago, Youda said: The fact that F-16 bleeds more speed in turn than F-18 in DCS was independently proven by many people on this forum including myself. Good on ya. 1 hour ago, Youda said: It's much more likely that you will be forced by him to dodge a shot, because he will almost certainly get you in his gunsight first, which makes your (F-16) situation even worse. That can happen pretty easily, yes. That's what happens when you've got two modern high performance super fighters trying to kill each other. Somebody's one bobble from eating a bullet. 1 hour ago, Youda said: There is plenty of F-18 vs F-16 study material, where in most cases it does not end well for the F-16. Yeah, that happens sometimes. 1 hour ago, Youda said: Probably most notably here, where the F-16 tries to energy fight like you say it should but instead it just gets sniped from below Yeah, you can get killed no matter what. That's like... a thing when two planes are shooting at each other. That's still the kind of fight you'd want to fight against a Hornet. I don't get what's so hard about that to understand. Yes, that guy got shot. IT DOESN'T MATTER. That's STILL an excellent example of the kind of energy advantage you want to try to build up. Do THAT, but NOT the part where he got shot. That's your goal. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youda Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: It takes a lot of dicking around to record a decent video, edit it down to essentials, No, it doesn't. If you have a GPU from NVidia you already have ShadowPlay installed, if you have AMD you have ReLive. In both cases all it takes is 1. shortcut + Start Recording, shortcut + Stop Recording 2. drag&drop to youtube window 3. paste link here No editing is needed. Example: Simple, but does it's job. Everyone understands what the author meant. No cuts, no text and no drawings are necesary. In the end, you don't even need a video. Simple TacView or a game track is enough, and those are created automatically with no effort whatsoever. 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: You continue to fundamentally miss the point, which I'm beginning to think is borderline deliberate. It is examples of the basic tactics and strategies a person should be striving for. Any video is fundamentally useless except as demonstration because circumstances eill always vary. You need to be able to observe a demonstration, recognise the principles you're seeing, and try to apply them yourself. That's literally how ''watching a video of somebody else doing a thing'' works. So yes, GS skill is irrelevant in that context, as the relevant material was the behavior of the Viper. You come here automatically asuming that i'm a beginner who doesn't know the basic tactics of dogfighting, who doesn't know what boom&zoom is, and who only knows to pull stick fully aft. Why? I may be relatively new to DCS (less than 1 year of experience) but i'm definitely not new to flight simulators (over 20 years of experience). Your attempt at teaching me what energy fighting is and how to correctly rate an enemy is completely missplaces and a proof that it's you who misses the point. Of course i understand perfectly what you're trying to say, and i know perfectly all the tatics you think i need to be taught first. But if you read a little backwards i explained you why i think you are still wrong. 1. Boom&zoom was invented in WWII and the reason it worked so well was because those planes were slow to climb, so once you got an altitude you had a big advantage because the enemy couldn't follow you up. This is no longer the case. If you take a Hornet and pull straight up into complete vertical while doing just 200 knots, you will still gain 12000 ft before finally stalling. 2. Gunsights are so accurate that killing a plane from 1 mile becomes possible. So the amount of energy advantage you need to have to successfully perform a rope&dope while staying outside of gun range is so high that and the TWR difference between F-16 and F-18 so low that you will never get it using normal means. 3. All it takes is one Fox-2 (and it does not even have to be the modern all-aspect one, the Vietnam-era rear-aspect one is enough) and you can throw this tactic out of the window. F-16 was designed in an era where missiles already existed. It does not make sense to teach and practice the old WWII tactics. This is not Bf-109 vs Spitfire. Things that worked back than don't work anymore. 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: No, they're not. They're superior in different areas. In this case the differences are substantial enough that it can be extremely difficult to capitalise on your ''advantage'' because of the gross disparity. They're not evenly matched. The Hornet is better at low speed high alpha, the Viper at higher speed energy retention. They are not so grossly dissimilar as a P-36 and F-86 as to be ''incapable of bridging the gap''. Both are capable aircraft and can cross over into each other's realms... but each is better in its own realm than in the other. You can use any aircraft in any manner, depending on circumstance. Ok, i hoped i don't need to define basic commonly used terms, but apparently i have to. "evenly matched" does not mean to have all flight characteristics absolutely equal. It means that advantages and disadvantages are in balance, which means if 2 equally skilled pilots get to fight against each other, both have equal chances of winning if they play their jets correctly to their advantages. This does not happen in the F-18 vs F-16 matchup, because the Hornet wins in both instantaneous and sustained turn rate and the climbing advantage of the F-16 is not big enough to counter those advantages. That's what this all thread is about and what you should finally understand and stop strawmaning. 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: If by ''equally skilled'' you mean ''equally determined to engage in the same fight, which naturally favors one over the other'', then yes. No, that's a strawman. I explained you why other tactics won't work either. 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: That is very much the ''why even both flying anything else, Hornet meta iz the bestest'' tone of this thread, yes. Currently the only reason to fly the F-16 is if you want a challange and you voluntarily want to put yourself at a disadvantage. If your goal is to win, which the tournaments are usually about, there is no reason to pick the F-16. Again, explain to me why most of the people in Folds of Honor this year chose the F-18 including the finalists. Ask the winner of the tournament why he flew all the rounds with F-18, he had to have a very good reason to. Are you really that confident with your skills and knowledge to assert that you know better than the winner of the tournament and his decision was wrong? If you admit that you might not be as good as him, doesn't his choice prove the superiority of the Hornet for the high-skill-level competitions? 8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said: That's still the kind of fight you'd want to fight against a Hornet. I don't get what's so hard about that to understand. Yes, that guy got shot. IT DOESN'T MATTER. That's STILL an excellent example of the kind of energy advantage you want to try to build up. Do THAT, but NOT the part where he got shot. That's your goal. So the guy performed the exact tactic you're talking about, died anyway. And you insist it supports your argument?!? How about you show an example where it ends well, and the Hornet pilot isn't a potato who voluntarily dumps all his energy? The truth is, the Hornet pilot can only be defeated if he flies his plane poorly. That's what i'm saying. Edited May 13, 2021 by Youda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkman222 Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) The thing is, why wont you pick an F16 in a "guns only" dog fight tournament at the moment? Because what counts is the package of code that creates the F16 as dogfighter here. Everything that still stands out needs to be addressed and fixed. Otherwise comparisons are still not possible. For example: Some more degrees per sec turnrate? Great, but still no fun fightig g-loc instead of the bandit. Better g modelling? Cool: now you can get frustrated even earlier having trouble locking up a bad guy. The (correct as is) radar lock bug has been fixed? Cool, now hope that the level 5 gunsight stays stable in MP and does not get crazy, like in the early days of the Hornet gunsight being twitchy in MP. Fortunately that happens very rarely in the DCS F16 today. Dont get me wrong. As an 80ies child, I like the F16 and I pick it even on "guns only" dogfight servers. You stay fast and dont get killed. But comparing it with the F18 or F15 the kill rate is only half as many bandits in guns area. Take the F16 to a BVR area and you face a totally different situation. So why do I and other people obviously play "guns only" then? Because its fun. And this is what apparently drives the people in this thread. Edited May 14, 2021 by darkman222 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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