correct as-is Weaker Radar

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

   At the moment, I can only pick up fighter radar for contacts, (both large and small) from about 50 miles away even though they are hot. Before the update, I was able to bug targets usually over 80 miles. Was this change intentional or is it a glitch?

[Tholozor]

Detection range has been altered intentionally to be more accurate as-per:

May see further changes down the line one way or the other.

[nighthawk2174]

40 minutes ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

   At the moment, I can only pick up fighter radar for contacts, (both large and small) from about 50 miles away even though they are hot. Before the update, I was able to bug targets usually over 80 miles. Was this change intentional or is it a glitch?

Yeah before hand it was overperforming, those are the kind of detection ranges the F15's radar should be getting.  Although tbf an issue with this is that many aircrafts RCS values are too low.  So if that is ever fixed it'll mitigate this somewhat against larger RCS targets like the F15/SU27/F14/MIG29, 12-15m^2/16-20m^2/12-15m^2/20-25m^2 range respectively instead of the 5'ish(or lower) they are now.

[Hulkbust44]

   At the moment, I can only pick up fighter radar for contacts, (both large and small) from about 50 miles away even though they are hot. Before the update, I was able to bug targets usually over 80 miles. Was this change intentional or is it a glitch?

The change was intentional, but 50 miles sounds a little closer than it should. The Hornet radar is supposed to quite a bit more powerful than the F-16s. (which is also over performing) Realistically the 16's radar range is about 40nm, so I would expect somewhere around 60nm for the Hornet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[LaFleur]

4 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

The change was intentional, but 50 miles sounds a little closer than it should. The Hornet radar is supposed to quite a bit more powerful than the F-16s. (which is also over performing) Realistically the 16's radar range is about 40nm, so I would expect somewhere around 60nm for the Hornet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Yes. The F-16s radar is greatly overperforming. Granted the F-18s radar is about 40% more powerful than the F-16s one, and it has a larger dish, the F-18 should have the upper hand.

BUT, in DCS the F-16 is astronomically better. Here is a test performed by u/_Quaggles on reddit which indicates this issue:

[Cepheus76]

If a Hornet can pick up a fighter sized target only at ranges around 50 nm, so be it. But I wonder if we get sooner or later VSR? As far as I understand, this mode allows to determine the azimuth of contacts farther away, so it would be a welcome addition to overcome the shortened detection ranges.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/262104-having-a-really-hard-time-with-the-f18-aa-radar-again/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-4628157

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Bear21]

On 4/15/2021 at 9:20 AM, LaFleur said:

Yes. The F-16s radar is greatly overperforming. Granted the F-18s radar is about 40% more powerful than the F-16s one, and it has a larger dish, the F-18 should have the upper hand.

BUT, in DCS the F-16 is astronomically better. Here is a test performed by u/_Quaggles on reddit which indicates this issue:

I have the data for the APG-73 and APG-68. Using this and the radar equation and assuming a lot of things being equal (noise factor, integration, processing gain...., which is reasonable, they are the same vintage and country=both cooked with the same water ) the APG-73 (F-18C) shall have 60% longer detection range than APG-68 (F-16C). ED shall have this non confidential data and the competence (it's not rocket science), now to execute. The JF-17 radar is in the same class as the F-16, M2000C is worse as it has abouit the same transmit power as the F-16 but an inverted cassegrain antenna = higher sidelobes = less PD range. It's called RDM = "radar de merde" in France ie the bad radar by Thales (the antenna is the main problem). This was fixed in the RDY = planar slot antenna like the APG-68 and -73.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Bear21

[Harker]

I have the data for the APG-73 and APG-68. Using this and the radar equation and assuming a lot of things being equal (noise factor, integration, processing gain...., which is reasonable, they are the same vintage and country=both cooked with the same water ) the APG-73 (F-18C) shall have 60% longer detection range than APG-68 (F-16C). ED shall have this non confidential data and the competence (it's not rocket science), now to execute. The JF-17 radar is in the same class as the F-16, M2000C is worse as it has abouit the same transmit power as the F-16 but an inverted cassegrain antenna = higher sidelobes = less PD range. It's called RDM = "radar de merde" in France ie the bad radar by Thales (the antenna is the main problem). This was fixed in the RDY = planar slot antenna like the APG-68 and -73.

The Mirage we have should be the S5 variant IIRC, equipped with the RDI J3-13 radar.

[Bear21]

11 hours ago, Harker said:

13 hours ago, Bear21 said:

I have the data for the APG-73 and APG-68. Using this and the radar equation and assuming a lot of things being equal (noise factor, integration, processing gain...., which is reasonable, they are the same vintage and country=both cooked with the same water ) the APG-73 (F-18C) shall have 60% longer detection range than APG-68 (F-16C). ED shall have this non confidential data and the competence (it's not rocket science), now to execute. The JF-17 radar is in the same class as the F-16, M2000C is worse as it has abouit the same transmit power as the F-16 but an inverted cassegrain antenna = higher sidelobes = less PD range. It's called RDM = "radar de merde" in France ie the bad radar by Thales (the antenna is the main problem). This was fixed in the RDY = planar slot antenna like the APG-68 and -73.

The Mirage we have should be the S5 variant IIRC, equipped with the RDI J3-13 radar.

Thanks, my bad. The radar was so bad when I flew the M2000 a year ago that I thought it was the "Radar De Merde". I checked, it's the inflexible, A-A BVR oriented RDI. In this case the RDI should have 26% better range than the F-16 APG-68 for HI PRF hot targets, mainly because of a 40% larger planar slot antenna (3.5° circular lobe) and shall suck on flanking and cold targets as it's a HI PRF radar that lacks MPRF (this came in the later RDY). RDI's low PRF modes for non PD stuff shall be really bad as well, its TWT transmitter is designed for high duty factor HIPRF modes with a low peak power. The peak power of the non pulse compression LP modes suffers. RDI has a low range in all modes except A-A HIPRF PD modes (the radar has no pulse compression to compensate a low peak power, this came in RDY).

Edited April 17, 2021 by Bear21

[wilbur81]

On 4/16/2021 at 5:14 PM, Bear21 said:

I have the data for the APG-73 and APG-68. Using this and the radar equation and assuming a lot of things being equal (noise factor, integration, processing gain...., which is reasonable, they are the same vintage and country=both cooked with the same water ) the APG-73 (F-18C) shall have 60% longer detection range than APG-68 (F-16C). 

 

^^^This ^^^

 

Thanks, Bear. 

[nighthawk2174]

On 4/16/2021 at 5:14 PM, Bear21 said:

I have the data for the APG-73 and APG-68. Using this and the radar equation and assuming a lot of things being equal (noise factor, integration, processing gain...., which is reasonable, they are the same vintage and country=both cooked with the same water ) the APG-73 (F-18C) shall have 60% longer detection range than APG-68 (F-16C). ED shall have this non confidential data and the competence (it's not rocket science), now to execute. The JF-17 radar is in the same class as the F-16, M2000C is worse as it has abouit the same transmit power as the F-16 but an inverted cassegrain antenna = higher sidelobes = less PD range. It's called RDM = "radar de merde" in France ie the bad radar by Thales (the antenna is the main problem). This was fixed in the RDY = planar slot antenna like the APG-68 and -73.

 

Any chance you'd be willing to share the data/docs it comes from?  Would love to take a look!

[Bear21]

The APG-73 and 68 are Pulse Doppler (PD) radar with multimode transmitters and use pulsecompression to run the radar to their transmitter limits in the different A-A modes. With assumption of the same bracket for receiver noise factor, integrated pulses and compression processing gain, the differences in range in the different modes boils down to the transmitter power and antenna gain. In a multimode radar it's productive to look at the average transmitter power (which is then divided with the duty factor to get peak power). Range is then dependent on average transmitter power, 1,800W for -73 and 800W for -68, and antenna gain, 35.8 dB for -73 and 33.5 dB for -68 (You get if from transmitter frequency and antenna area. The exact figure is dependent on your antenna weighting function but we are looking a relations here). Putting it all in the radar equation gives you the range difference.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Bear21

[LaFleur]

1 hour ago, Bear21 said:

The APG-73 and 68 are Pulse Doppler (PD) radar with multimode transmitters and use pulsecompression to run the radar to their transmitter limits in the different A-A modes. With assumption of the same bracket for receiver noise factor, integrated pulses and compression processing gain, the differences in range in the different modes boils down to the transmitter power and antenna gain. In a multimode radar it's productive to look at the average transmitter power (which is then divided with the duty factor to get peak power). Range is then dependent on average transmitter power, 1,800W for -73 and 800W for -68, and antenna gain, 35.8 dB for -73 and 33.5 dB for -68 (You get if from transmitter frequency and antenna area. The exact figure is dependent on your antenna weighting function but we are looking a relations here). Putting it all in the radar equation gives you the range difference.

 

That's interesting.. How about the rest of the values? 

[Bear21]

Nice try LaFleur , but you can't calculate anything meaningful with this calculator. It's made for old style pulse radars as it ignores pulse compression gain and integration. Further, you need the peak power derived through a reasonable duty factor for the mode you are modeling and read up on what dB is. I'm not trying to be difficult but the absolute range calculation of PD radars need detailed knowledge of a number of rather tricky parameters. This is why I stay with the relationship of the range between the radars, which is much simpler to estimate. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Bear21

[LaFleur]

Yeah. I'm ignorant about the technical aspect of the radars and their specs. Thought this would give me an approximate estimate of each radars' performance. Let's hope ED has the info and the means to implement realistic radar detection ranges for other modules as well, not only the F/A-18C... 

Edited April 20, 2021 by LaFleur

[BlackPixxel]

6 hours ago, Bear21 said:

Nice try LaFleur , but you can't calculate anything meaningful with this calculator. It's made for old style pulse radars as it ignores pulse compression gain and integration. Further, you need the peak power derived through a reasonable duty factor for the mode you are modeling and read up on what dB is. I'm not trying to be difficult but the absolute range calculation of PD radars need detailed knowledge of a number of rather tricky parameters. This is why I stay with the relationship of the range between the radars, which is much simpler to estimate. 

 

 

Wouldn't a radar with pulse compression and a normal pulse radar have the same detection range when their average power is the same?

[Bear21]

2 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Wouldn't a radar with pulse compression and a normal pulse radar have the same detection range when their average power is the same?

Yes, if the processing gain of the pulse compression is one to one with a shorter pulse with a higher peak power. This is my point, you can rank radars from the same time period using average power and antenna gain, given you understand how they operate (HPD + MPD or not, dual mode transmitters or not, pulse compression or not, receiver technology and processing, scan time on target, etc.). I would be careful saying you can predict their actual range as this requires detailed knowledge of the radars but also of the targets characteristics (a simple RCS value is a huge simplification of a real A-A target).

[Beamscanner]

Max range would be with HPRF.

 

HPRF waveforms don't use pulse compression. MPRF waveforms do, but not HPRF. 

 

HPRF waveforms of this era use a three stage FMR.

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

HPRF integration time per FMR stage is likely equal to: 

 

3dB antenna beam width / (antenna scan in degrees/sec) / 3 

 

This formula maximizes the integration time whilst being about to illuminate a single target with 3 separate waveforms (3 stage FMR) 

Each FMR stage being its own integration period.

 

 

Generic example: 

Antenna beam width = 3 degrees

Scan speed = 60 degrees per sec

 

(3 degrees) / (60degrees/sec) / 3 = .0167 sec integration time (per FMR stage)

 

Assume a 30% duty cycle in HPRF

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

F-16 doesn't have HPRF in RWS/TWS.. Only MPRF. That alone means that the integration time and average power is much higher in the F-18.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

MPRF integration time is likely equal to one of several FFT sizes (64, 128, 256, 512) multiplied by the PRI. 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Beamscanner

[DLEGION]

just to know... is normal that with latest patch i was able to detect (and few secs later also finally lock) two mig29 flying hot at 36000 feet that i was able to see way before ?
hornet radar get a lock like 5 miles more far that an aim120 radar ?
is that normal ? 

[jackdaw]

Why does the hornet radar scale go out to 160nm, when apparently it can only see out to 40nm?

[Tholozor]

Maybe because that's how far the HSI/SA pages go out? Technically further with de-center options.

[falcon_120]

Why does the hornet radar scale go out to 160nm, when apparently it can only see out to 40nm?

It can detect a tanker or an awacs at that distance, not a small fighter. Though 50 nm should be easy on a hot target, 40nm seems low.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Bravo One]

20 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

Welcome to the real world

lol, soo this is the real world? wow

[Shimmergloom667]

To the best of our knowledge, yes.