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The Mirage F1 Info Thread


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16 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

From doing lots of dogfighting on the cold war server whether the fight is one circle or two is actually largely irrelevant. 90% of fights are not neutral merges, usually then the winner is the person that sees their opponent first, and after that it's who judged the energy state better and set up good geometry and maintained energy till they judged correctly when they needed to cash it in. Also weapon loadouts and even fuel will largely effect any turn fight. In the Mig 21Bis while fat on fuel I can't out horixontal rate a F-86, but once my fuel drops to below 1100 it's a different story.

 

I too play Cold War alot, as you know. I think we can agree that a VAST majority of our kills are on people unaware we are even there. For me the most important features a plane can have for Cold War combat is visibility, top speed at sea level off of burner, and a good initial turn. I think the F1 will fit these criteria perfectly. the F1 should be a menace will its long endurance and high missile count, im so excited!

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38 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

I too play Cold War alot, as you know. I think we can agree that a VAST majority of our kills are on people unaware we are even there. For me the most important features a plane can have for Cold War combat is visibility, top speed at sea level off of burner, and a good initial turn. I think the F1 will fit these criteria perfectly. the F1 should be a menace will its long endurance and high missile count, im so excited!

Agreed.

For me the heading tape on the hud is a very desirable feature. It's always stressful having to go heads down to check your heading as you skimming at treetop level to a new bandit callout. It's frontal visibility looks like it's going to be worse then the F-5, and the MiG 21 (is a bit cluttered up) but still useable. The side and rear visibility looks like it will be a bit better then both. 

I am really looking forward to the dual 30mm revolver cannons that are very similar to the ones in the Mirage 2000C. I am also looking forward to trying some 5nm R530 shots against high fliers (interested to see how they do)

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31 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Agreed.

For me the heading tape on the hud is a very desirable feature. It's always stressful having to go heads down to check your heading as you skimming at treetop level to a new bandit callout. It's frontal visibility looks like it's going to be worse then the F-5, and the MiG 21 (is a bit cluttered up) but still useable. The side and rear visibility looks like it will be a bit better then both. 

I am really looking forward to the dual 30mm revolver cannons that are very similar to the ones in the Mirage 2000C. I am also looking forward to trying some 5nm R530 shots against high fliers (interested to see how they do)

for me im looking forward to the radar modes, namely the boresight and vertical scans used for WVR. it will be so handy to lock someone with the "HUD" for an R530 shot into the belly, especially for the guys who are high enough to contrail. and those 30mms do sound nice, the MiG-21 is exceptionally tanky and the F5 can have difficulty putting it down with its 20mms.

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6 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

for me im looking forward to the radar modes, namely the boresight and vertical scans used for WVR. it will be so handy to lock someone with the "HUD" for an R530 shot into the belly, especially for the guys who are high enough to contrail. and those 30mms do sound nice, the MiG-21 is exceptionally tanky and the F5 can have difficulty putting it down with its 20mms.

I knew it had boresight but I wasn't aware of vertical scan, but then we are getting the newer Cyrano IVm on all the 4 variants do that makes sense

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5 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

I knew it had boresight but I wasn't aware of vertical scan, but then we are getting the newer Cyrano IVm on all the 4 variants do that makes sense

I don't think all the versions in game we are getting have the Cyrano IVM just the F1M will have this system from what I have read online. The CE BE and EE all just have the Cyrano IV.

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5 hours ago, potatoman530 said:

I don't think all the versions in game we are getting have the Cyrano IVM just the F1M will have this system from what I have read online. The CE BE and EE all just have the Cyrano IV.

All versions we are getting will have the IVM, all the EEs had it, and Tranche 3 and Tranche 4 CEs had it too. we are getting a Tranche 4 i believe as it has the flares and chaff as well as leading edge slats. The radar on the F1M is also a IVM but it is improved with new modes and possibly an IFF interrogator. not sure about the IFF part.
it would be nice for Aerges to clarify this so we didnt have to guess so much.


Edited by Get_Lo
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3 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

All versions we are getting will have the IVM, all the EEs had it, and Tranche 3 and Tranche 4 CEs had it too. we are getting a Tranche 4 i believe as it has the flares and chaff as well as leading edge slats. The radar on the F1M is also a IVM but it is improved with new modes and possibly an IFF interrogator. not sure about the IFF part.
it would be nice for Aerges to clarify this so we didnt have to guess so much.

 

What are the new modes specifically?

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RADAR POST @CrazyGman
Here are some radar modes of Cyrano, no guarantee all of them will function, cross reference cockpit photos from Aerges to see which ones we might have. We will most likely lack many of the A2G modes. There are also modes which do not show on this manual as it is not exactly the same model Cyrano. For example BZ (not in the manual, but shown in the F1 cockpit) mode appears to be a "Super search" mode. and TL Should be "Air to air Boresight"
f3aff60caeb52a7a493e7a8efae2e5d0.png

Here are the scan presets:
623e4dad5bd085c52a68f074afdf0240.png9e8b8f7350567945a2f61026367b0404.png
Here is EMERGENCY GUN MODE (Boresight lock, similar to Mirage 2000):
c4a4b90a44f365569a8104579c279001.png
d1dc8a97cdb4da9a77add3e58d2734b4.png


Edited by Get_Lo
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I noticed that they didn't actually show what I think is the radar control panel (behind the throttle?) in any of the screenshots they've shared. The radar screen does have a bunch of lights that might correspond to radar modes/settings, but other than HA (which I guess is pulse search with next to no filtering?) the others do not correspond to the lettering. They also look nothing like the names of the radar modes on the Mirage 2000, so I have no idea what modes may or may not be included in the module.

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33 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

I noticed that they didn't actually show what I think is the radar control panel (behind the throttle?) in any of the screenshots they've shared. The radar screen does have a bunch of lights that might correspond to radar modes/settings, but other than HA (which I guess is pulse search with next to no filtering?) the others do not correspond to the lettering. They also look nothing like the names of the radar modes on the Mirage 2000, so I have no idea what modes may or may not be included in the module.

this manual gives details on the radar control stick but does not mention much about a panel apart from said stick, it talks about controls of the stick but I dont remember seeing anything talked about that wasnt on the stick itself. let me get a better translation of the modes from outside the manual.
f60cb49387a351c0f01114cec953ae52.thumb.jpg.0b132644a086aa02bbbbfa84b766e4d6.jpg
HA: High Altitude
IC: Short Pulse
TL: A-A Boresight
BZ: HUD Scan?
TS: A-G Ranging
V1/2: mapping modes 
DC: Terrain countour map
PR:?
AC: Anti Collision
DB: jammer detection

ill try to find a picture of the radar stick/panel in a real cockpit
Edit: Best I can find, it looks pretty baron. all the controls should be on the stick
0860f4f34199df4061d4518e6faf2d99.jpg


Edited by Get_Lo
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37 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

I noticed that they didn't actually show what I think is the radar control panel (behind the throttle?) in any of the screenshots they've shared. The radar screen does have a bunch of lights that might correspond to radar modes/settings, but other than HA (which I guess is pulse search with next to no filtering?) the others do not correspond to the lettering. They also look nothing like the names of the radar modes on the Mirage 2000, so I have no idea what modes may or may not be included in the module.

I found the error, the modes are translated in that manual so they do not match up with the lettering we see in the CE(its also a different version). my bad! see my post above to clarify a bit of what we are looking at, sorry for confusion.


Edited by Get_Lo
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Thanks! And yeah I would expect the controls to be pretty different between aircraft among operators, it's not uncommon. I was reading through through an F-104 manual the other day and it's the same, several F-104G operators had very very different radar controls.

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Here is the Radar control Stick from the Mirage IIIO with its functions. Physically stick looks the same. Looking at the Spanish diagram, functions seem similar

Mir_rdr_stick.jpg

The term "Strobe" means effectively the TDC. Rotational movement moves the Strobe in range. Vertical left Right movement moves the strobe in Azimuth. The Strobe was a single horizontal line the Right hand edge being the exact point positioned by the stick under the return , lock on then being initiated. Below is Mirage III display in the lock on process, Lock on being commanded on the return second down from the top of the display.

Stop.jpg

Real stick

Cyrano-stick.jpg


Edited by IvanK
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I hope the following does not concern mirage III... 😇

https://pyrodine16.rssing.com/chan-9282860/article8.html

" The first Mirage F-1s that entered service in France in 1973, corresponding to the F-1C ("pure fighter") variant, were equipped with the Cyrano IV-0 radar, the basic version dedicated exclusively to air-to-air functions. Shortly after they were upgraded to the Cyrano IV-1 level incorporating some MTI (Moving Target Indicator) modes, which give it a certain "look down-shoot down" capability for the use of semi-active air-to-air missiles. This version is also called “Gnome Clutter”. In these first two versions, the performance was not very good in bad weather, so it was recommended to use it at high altitude, above the cloud layer, being able to intercept at supersonic speed.

Starting with the Cyrano IV-2, simple air-to-ground modes such as a mapping mode were included and approved to guide the new Super 530F semi-active missile that was just beginning to be incorporated into the Armee de l'Air.

A later Cyrano IV-3 version standardized the capabilities of the earlier models.

With the appearance of the Mirage F-1E, versatile for export, the much improved Cyrano IV-M entered service, which includes air-sea modes, ground mapping, contour mapping and air-ground telemetry, plus the inclusion of some filters for defeat certain electronic countermeasures. Also included is the ability to launch AS.30 air-to-surface missiles and Martel anti-radar missiles, while radar readings are now displayed on a real HUD, the Thomson CSF VE-110 or 120 replacing the old electromechanical sight.

Throughout its career, the Cyrano IV radar has used external aids to counter electronic countermeasures. These are the ECM pods that have appeared since the early 1980s as the Barracuda, followed by the Barax, the Remora, and then the Cayman. Said equipment deserves a detailed analysis that exceeds this note and will be dealt with in a timely manner, but we will say that they are carried externally on an underwing support and are passive and/or active interference systems. Although it is equipment that entered service more than 20 years ago, many were conveniently updated, such as the Barax carried by the Spanish Mirage F-1M. "

 

and also about phases of use of the Cyrano IV radar :

Cyrano Radar Family | Secret Projects Forum

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20 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

RADAR POST @CrazyGman
Here are some radar modes of Cyrano, no guarantee all of them will function, cross reference cockpit photos from Aerges to see which ones we might have. We will most likely lack many of the A2G modes. There are also modes which do not show on this manual as it is not exactly the same model Cyrano. For example BZ (not in the manual, but shown in the F1 cockpit) mode appears to be a "Super search" mode. and TL Should be "Air to air Boresight"
f3aff60caeb52a7a493e7a8efae2e5d0.png

Here are the scan presets:
623e4dad5bd085c52a68f074afdf0240.png9e8b8f7350567945a2f61026367b0404.png
Here is EMERGENCY GUN MODE (Boresight lock, similar to Mirage 2000):
c4a4b90a44f365569a8104579c279001.png
d1dc8a97cdb4da9a77add3e58d2734b4.png

 

The different ranges are going to take some getting used to 60nm markers every 10 then 35nm with markers at 10 then 15nm markers at 5 then 7nm marker at 2

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56 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

@IvanK @M F1
Is it known if "GUN EMERGENCY MODE" can be used to fire a radar guided missile?

If its the same as in Mir III then all Gun emergency mode does is select Boresight with Auto lock on. All you need to do is put a fixed refrence in the sight over the target and hold the Gun Emergency mode button depressed until lock on is achieved. If you release the button before lock the radar returns to the previously selected search mode.  So after lock you get tracking data. Missile Firing (R550/AIM9) is independent of this requirement so always available.

Not quite so simple for the R530 as there were a bunch of relatively complicated process between the Missile and the radar that occur after lock on to get the missile to launch status. In the Mir III this could take anywhere between 1-4seconds to actually occur.  This was so limiting that in the front sector head on there were defined Minimum Lock ranges  based on closure.... not helped by limiting range of the radar !  In many cases these Minimum Lock ranges were very limiting.  A reasonable amount of dexterity was also required to manipulate the strobe (Azimuth range and antenna elev all at the same time... all with range rapidly reducing :).   (R530 was as useless as tits on a bull btw 🙂


Edited by IvanK
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23 minutes ago, IvanK said:

If its the same as in Mir III then all Gun emergency mode does is select Boresight with Auto lock on. All you need to do is put a fixed refrence in the sight over the target and hold the Gun Emergency mode button depressed until lock on is achieved. If you release the button before lock the radar returns to the previously selected search mode.  So after lock you get tracking data. Missile Firing (R550/AIM9) is independent of this requirement so always available.

Not quite so simple for the R530 as there were a bunch of relatively complicated process between the Missile and the radar that occur after lock on to get the missile to launch status. In the Mir III this could take anywhere between 1-4seconds to actually occur.  This was so limiting that in the front sector head on there were defined Minimum Lock ranges  based on closure.... not helped by limiting range of the radar !  In many cases these Minimum Lock ranges were very limiting.  A reasonable amount of dexterity was also required to manipulate the strobe (Azimuth range and antenna elev all at the same time... all with range rapidly reducing :).   (R530 was as useless as tits on a bull btw 🙂

 

Thank you for the information! I was hoping to be able to use boresight radar mode as a fast and easy way to get a R530 out onto a target I acquired visually. in the Mirage 2000 this method works wonders. 

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2 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

Thank you for the information! I was hoping to be able to use boresight radar mode as a fast and easy way to get a R530 out onto a target I acquired visually. in the Mirage 2000 this method works wonders. 

If the R530(EM version)mechanization in the F1 is the same as in the MIRIII then trying to employ the Boresight radar mode in anything other than a tail chase situation would be nigh on impossible. No issue for R550/AIM9 though.

R530 employment in a Manoeuvering engagement is a complete waste of time.... PK= 0

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46 minutes ago, IvanK said:

If the R530(EM version)mechanization in the F1 is the same as in the MIRIII then trying to employ the Boresight radar mode in anything other than a tail chase situation would be nigh on impossible. No issue for R550/AIM9 though.

R530 employment in a Manoeuvering engagement is a complete waste of time.... PK= 0

of course, my main plan is to employ this method on enemies who are flying high in the contrails, shooting from their bellies and out of their sight. The Cyrano IV has about twice the lock range of the Cyrano II of the Mirage 3 so hopefully that fixes some of the headaches regarding the radar. the missile on the other hand..... yeah I have no intention of hitting anything that is turning at all.
and if I recall the 530 missile, while largely the same, is slightly different model for F1s. its called the R530F (not to be confused with S530F)


Edited by Get_Lo
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12 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

I'm still kind of hoping we'll see the Super 530F as an option for the CE - maybe hardcoded to the country of use (e.g. France).

I hope to see it too, I wouldnt worry so much about hardcoding it as anyone who doesnt want to use it, can just not use it.
ED did everyone a big favor by adding the weaponry customization for mission makers last year, one of the best additions imo


Edited by Get_Lo
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