Hind and VRS?

[Rhinozherous]

Hello! 

As I fly the MI8 from time to time I wondered if anyone knows how prone the Hind is in regards of entering Vortex Ring State? 

 

If you go above a certain VS the Mi8 is lost and you have no or little chances to recovering from VRS. The huey is not that prone to VRS... I think because it is smaller and lighter.

 

Does anyone know if the HIND is more like the HUEY or more like the MI8 in regards of VRS? 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Rhinozherous

[SmukY]

Of course it is possible to save Mi-8 from VRS. As soon at it starts to shake before transitioning to hover that's your cue to add more power (or to be precise, pull the collective) or you risk entering into VRS. If you enter into VRS then you have to qucikly gain some horizontal or lateral speed, help yourself with pressing on a pedal too.

Hind is actually heavier than Mi-8 and as every helicopter it will require a lot of caution at decreasing altitude while being still with zero horizontal and lateral speed. Never exceed negative 3-4 m/s and you should be fine.

Although it was frequently taking off into air and landed as airplane, meaning pilots are mostly used to do rolling take offs and landings - it's safer and since it is a large helicopter and consequently it's generally safer that way for the aircraft and its surroundings on the tarmac.

Edited April 19, 2021 by SmukY

[ARM505]

The Mi8 is far too prone to entering VRS.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the lengthy debate on this topic. Sorry, but it's just a fact, as far as I'm concerned (of course I'm nobody when it comes to this, so naturally I don't expect anything to change based on what I say, no illusions on that front). But the Mi8's excellent simulation of rotary winged flight is tarnished by an overzealous implementation of how hard it actually is to enter VRS. Yes, I know how to avoid it in DCS (don't confuse 'hard' with 'realistic'). No, if helicopters, and the Mi8/17 were that prone to enter VRS is would be VERY widely published because people would be crashing them all the time.

 

I hope they don't go so far with the Mi24.

[Rhinozherous]

Thank you guys!

I hope the Hind is more on the easy side in terms of VRS. I am by far no helo expert, but always had the feeling the Hip is entering it too easy. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rhinozherous

[Lurker]

14 hours ago, ARM505 said:

The Mi8 is far too prone to entering VRS.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the lengthy debate on this topic. Sorry, but it's just a fact, as far as I'm concerned (of course I'm nobody when it comes to this, so naturally I don't expect anything to change based on what I say, no illusions on that front). But the Mi8's excellent simulation of rotary winged flight is tarnished by an overzealous implementation of how hard it actually is to enter VRS. Yes, I know how to avoid it in DCS (don't confuse 'hard' with 'realistic'). No, if helicopters, and the Mi8/17 were that prone to enter VRS is would be VERY widely published because people would be crashing them all the time.

 

I hope they don't go so far with the Mi24.

 

I used to think that as well, before I got more stick time with it and before I started flying it in VR. You have to take into account that we are flying these machines from our desktop PCs (for the most part) we are not sitting in our cockpit and most of us do not have 1:1 control schemes. In this case the collective is probably the most crucial part of the kit, because it is much longer than any throw of our desktop throttles it allows much finer precision control of power settings. 

[malcheus]

Just my two cents: It's not just the precision of the collective, it's also the extremely short interval between the shaking and full-blown VRS,

and the delay in lift response when pulling the collective.

 

It's very possible to get into VRS before the (non radar) VSI shows a dangerously high vertical speed due to it's delay. 

It's also possible to enter VRS before the radar VSI becomes active due to the nose-up attitude when braking too fast.

 

In other words, it's possible to enter VRS without any of the instruments warning you for it with enough time to respond. 

 

If you add wind to the equasion, it's also possible to reach 0 airspeed while having some groundspeed, which means that simply looking outside also isn't a foolproof method.

After crashing a few dozen times, us desktop pilots know how to avoid this, but if it were like this in the real thing, I think there would be less Mi8's in the world. 

 

If it's implemented the same way with the hind, we will also adapt to it, but the implementation of VRS is one of the things I'm most curious about for the hind.

But even something as small as a shorter delay on the VSI, and a bit higher VSI precision or a wider radar VSI range can make a big difference. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by malcheus

[MAXsenna]

 
I used to think that as well, before I got more stick time with it and before I started flying it in VR. You have to take into account that we are flying these machines from our desktop PCs (for the most part) we are not sitting in our cockpit and most of us do not have 1:1 control schemes. In this case the collective is probably the most crucial part of the kit, because it is much longer than any throw of our desktop throttles it allows much finer precision control of power settings. 

Yup! I agree. After I received K-51's excellent collective, everything's a lot easier, but one must still pay attention.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Dangerzone]

Well, I guess we know the answer to this question now (as to how the Hind will be modeled in regards to VRS).

 

I've only had some brief experience in the Hind at the moment (FPS issues in VR after the first crash is limiting my time in this module) - and I'm wondering what people think of the VRS.

 

I have absolutely no clue as to how easy it is to enter VRS in the hind in real life - but it seems very easy to enter it in DCS. I'm guessing with the conversation re VRS and the Mi-8 that this is intentional with the Hind and unlikely to change?

[BeastyBaiter]

To me it seems easier to avoid VRS in the Hind than the Hip, but it isn't at the Ka-50's level of forgiveness. In terms of recovery, with a little altitude even the Hip can recover from full blown VRS where you're plummeting out of the sky like a brick. Just nose forward and get some movement going. Main thing is just don't drop the Hip at 50m, not much you can do in that situation. But honestly, you probably shouldn't be hovering 50m off the ground in the first place. That's a really dangerous place to be in any chopper. Too low to recover from a problem, too high to survive impact unscathed.

[VampireNZ]

5.44. Vortex Ring.
5.44.1 Manifestation:
 - spontaneous intensive increase of the vertical rate of descent;
 - helicopter shaking and darting from side to side;
 - unstable readings of speed indicator and rate-of-climb indicator.

 

5.44.2. Pilot's Actions:
 - by deflecting the control stick away from oneself, create a pitch
angle of minus 5.....10 deg to accelerate forward speed and increase the
main rotor collective pitch to reduce altitude loss; do not allow main
rotor RPM dropping below permissible value;
 - after reaching a forward speed of 50...60 km/h, set the helicopter to
horizontal flight followed by further speed increase'

 

Note. The helicopter entering the vortex ring is possible during a
power-on descent and forward speed under 50 km/h and a
vertical rate greater than 5 m/s. In those cases the conditions of
the main rotor airflow change, resulting in possible spontaneous
intensive increase of the vertical rate of descent, shaking and
darting of the helicopter from side to side, and impaired
controllability.
The "vortex ring" mode is the most dangerous during descent at
low altitudes, because for recovery from this mode, an altitude of
20 to 200 m is required.

[Rhinozherous]

Hind is more dynamic I feel...

In the MI8 it feels more like "VRS on or off".

 

In the Hind you still have to watch out what to do but it is much better to control and the edges between VRS or not are more dynamic. 

It is only my humble opinion but the Hind feels much more "natural". 

[tusler]

Since I have glued my eyes to the VSI during decent and modulate the collective between 0 and -2 m I have not had a VRS problem. I wish the dev's could give us a VSI HUD so when we looked around we could always see the VSI gauge. That would be very helpful.

Edited June 22, 2021 by tusler

[malcheus]

Regrettably, Petrovich still doesn't know about VRS.

[Plokkum]

I rarely had VRS occur in the Hind. Maybe because the Hip has been a merciless trainer. Of course, once you get too comfortable with it is when you start making mistakes

 

Not sure if it is modeled differently, but it feels less prone to it.

[rayrayblues]

The main difference between the Mi-24, Mi-8 and UH1H is that the 24 doesn't shake or vibrate.

The "feel" is smooth from nominal descent rate to VRS so you don't "feel" it coming.

If ED could implement a vibration of sorts, that would help, however it may not be that way in the real helo.