correct as-is Oleo spring rate/damping wrong?

[Badders46]

Not sure if this has been raise before but for me and squadron mates, the P-47 is nigh-on impossible to wheel on. It doesn't seem to matter what speed and descent rate is used, it just springs up into the air as if you have hit a trampoline and given the majority of landings that I have seen in real life have been wheeler landings, it makes me/us think something must be a bit off here?

 

Can you take a look?

 

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

 

 

[Art-J]

Agathos noted the same thing in his YT video with comparison of flying a real Mustang vs flying the virtual one in DCS. Maybe it's a general DCS warbirds issue?

 

I always go for three-pointers because two-pointers are usually a bouncy mess when I try to do them (but then I'm pretty bad at estimating correct altitude for flareout and touchdown in every flight sim I play ).

[grafspee]

I think that if that landing behavior would be way off Nick would not allow for this.

All wartime landings are 3 point.

Modern P-47 are striped from guns, aux tanks, whole turbo installation. Modern P-47 may not fly like original WW2 era.

And those bumps are associated with sudden increase of wing lift when you hit the ground, a lot less with any spring action of the landing gear, because you can hit ground hard w/o bounce in DCS

Maybe modern P-51s or P-47 from fact that they have no guns ww2 era heavy radios etc the mass behind landing gear is not enough to force rapid tail sink upon touching the ground, making it much easier to wheel land.

And in DCS this heavy weight in tail of P-47 is pronounced very well i think 

I've seen couple wheel landings in DCS posted here on this forum so it is doable for 100% just need practice.

Edited April 20, 2021 by grafspee

[KitKatCarson]

This is also something that I've noticed.

 

The airplane behaves as if you've brought the stick aft at touchdown instead of held it in position.

 

You don't get a chance to bring the stick forward before the airplane has bounced (not skipped) back into the air.

 

This completely disagrees with every wheel-landing that I've ever done.

 

Quote

All wartime landings are 3 point.

 

'Wartime landings' were (nearly always) two-point/wheel landings when recovering back at base as part of a flight.

 

If you three-point an airplane while recovering as part of a four-ship, you're not going to be able to see in front of you!

 

Three point landings for short fields, or single ship landings.

 

See this footage of the 4th FG for reference -> https://youtu.be/xbBi4rucrGI?t=482 , and there is plenty of footage of Mustang groups doing the same.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by KitKatCarson
Clarity

[Wiggy]

+1 to the Badders’ original post and to KitKatCarson’s post.

 

Have produced a short video to make the point. It’s pretty clear this isn’t normal behaviour... 

 

 

It’s as if the dampers are not functioning much at all. 

 

If you compare this directly to the excellent footage of the 4thFG which KitKatCarson posted, it still needs tuning. 

 

 

[grafspee]

I can see it as well, looks like that everything is fine until shock absorbers run out of movement then, sudden tail drop appear and planes lifts again.

I tested it again , the pitch up reaction at touch down is so fast that there is no way to counter it with stick.

On this mighty Eight landing gear looks like not much impressed with almost 0 shock absorber move, same with modern P-47 videos.

Edited April 21, 2021 by grafspee

[NineLine]

Thanks, I will look into it.

[Wiggy]

33 minutes ago, grafspee said:

I can see it as well, looks like that everything is fine until shock absorbers run out of movement then, sudden tail drop appear and planes lifts again.

I tested it again , the pitch up reaction at touch down is so fast that there is no way to counter it with stick.

On this mighty Eight landing gear looks like not much impressed with almost 0 shock absorber move, same with modern P-47 videos.

 

Exactly. Most of the shock load from that little a sink rate would be taken by the tyres alone. Whereas currently in DCS the shocks are fully compressing and uncompressing with equal measure immediately. 

[NineLine]

@WiggyWas that video made from a MP server?

 

Also can someone give me a track, I am really not noticing anything to crazy, even hitting the runway pretty heavy.

[Badders46]

Good to hear that I'm not the only one that feels like this and that video really highlighted what I am experiencing.

I am by no means the best pilot but if I have time today I can try and post a track but feel free to post tracks too

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

[Wiggy]

Hi Nineline, yes it was, although get exactly the same reaction in SP. I’ll post up a track when I can. 

[cromhunt]

Just practice and don't wait that thing becoming easy before.

You are right when you say it's difficult.

But it's not impossible.

If at each time something appears a little bit hard ,the devs will have to  change something in code,we will have a stupid game of flight and not a simulator.

As i can say and you can see in video,i'm not an expert the stuff could be better.But it's not necessary to make waste the time of the devs with that things.

Practice and practice.....

Edited April 22, 2021 by cromhunt

[KitKatCarson]

27 minutes ago, cromhunt said:

Just practice and don't wait that thing becoming easy before.

You are right when you say it's difficult.

But it's not impossible.

If at each time something appears a little bit hard ,the devs will have to  change something in code,we will have a stupid game of flight and not a simulator.

As i can say and you can see in video,i'm not an expert the stuff could be better.But it's not necessary to make waste the time of the devs with that things.

Practice and practice.....

 

 

If anything this video just further proves the point of this post!

 

Your wheel landings here are awful, and there is an obvious problem with the struts with how they compress and expand.

 

I'm sure Wiggy above could have done what you did here, and smash the airplane into the ground instead of going around, but this is not the point.

Edited April 22, 2021 by KitKatCarson

[Badders46]

Further to Kitkat's post... Watch Cromhunt's video at .25x playback speed and look at how extended the gear leg is (gap between the lower fairing and leg fairing) and the movement of the two parts of the gear leg fairing and compare it to this video of Nellie B (also at .25x speed) landing on grass which appears very bumpy. The difference is night and day... Nellie's fairing doesn't look to move at all and there is the smallest of gaps between the two parts

 

 

[cromhunt]

Yes:) the landing is horrible on my video:)besides i said i'm not an expert.
You point out a landing on grass.
I hope you know that on concrete and grass the ground effect is different.

I perfectly understand that you want to bring the subject on a something of ingeneering useless.
i don't care about what is the viscosity of oil ,the grease or  the tires pressure...etc

It's a game,not a laboratory.

 Anyway i maintain it could be better with a bit of practice,and no need any patch for that.
It's my  last word.
Have a good game.

Edited April 22, 2021 by cromhunt

[Art-J]

Not THAT different. There's a very neat two-pointer on a concrete in this video (16:30)...

 

 

...although there are three-pointers as well, showing that not all Thunderbolt pilots specifically prefer one or the other.

 

Another concrete one here:

 

 

Anyway - suggesting that easier = game and harder = simulation is nonsense. Both in flight and racing simulators. We're striving for accuracy here (within the limits of PC hardware of course) so if sometimes it means adjustment for easier handling - so be it (for example reduction of lateral grip of tyres done two'ish years ago after feedback from Mr Grey).

Edited April 22, 2021 by Art-J

[cromhunt]

No comments

 

[KitKatCarson]

56 minutes ago, cromhunt said:

No comments

 

 

You're coming in at 160MPH and driving the thing into the ground, terrible technique that succeeds because the game is broken.

 

Lets hope the developers address this 

[Wiggy]

@NineLine Hi Nineline, have attached a track and another video recorded directly from that track, hopefully showing it more clearly.  You can seen how much excessive input i'm having to give when the wheels even lightly contact the runway to keep the nose from bunting into the air. The track and control input indicator should back this up. The front-on view in the video also clearly shows the over-reaction from the struts when light contact is made, it's this over-reaction and seeming lack of damping which needs tuning in my opinion.

 

 

P47 wheelr.trk

Edited April 24, 2021 by Wiggy

[Wiggy]

Another good example from Fred Christensen of the 56th FG. Check this video from 0:30 - his sink rate is much more aggressive yet the damping is sufficient enough to prevent any bounce. 
 

 

[grafspee]

I don't know, 1st one does not look like high descend rate and another 2 are 3 pointing, in DCS when you 3 point, you can hit ground as hard as you can and no bounce happens.

I'm not sure if this is ground handling issue, bounce is clearly due to increase AOA when hitting the ground, maybe ground effect adds too much lift for wings.

 

[Mogster]

The landing from 0.55 is more akin to many in DCS though. The film is edited at that point, I wonder how it ended up... 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Mogster

[Wiggy]

38 minutes ago, grafspee said:

I don't know, 1st one does not look like high descend rate and another 2 are 3 pointing, in DCS when you 3 point, you can hit ground as hard as you can and no bounce happens.

I'm not sure if this is ground handling issue, bounce is clearly due to increase AOA when hitting the ground, maybe ground effect adds too much lift for wings.

 

I’m not talking about the other landings, the first landing only as obviously this is the only 2-point, and in comparison to my examples. Sorry I should have made that clearer. Either way he doesn’t balloon into the air. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Wiggy

[grafspee]

4 minutes ago, Wiggy said:

I’m not talking about the other landings, the first landing only as obviously this is the only 2-point, and in comparison to my examples. Sorry I should have made that clearer. Either way he doesn’t balloon into the air. 

 

His descent rate isn't high

[Wiggy]

No, it’s not but it’s higher than my example! Blimey. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Wiggy