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The SA-10 is unable to shoot down the AGM-88C when used in PB mode.


Martin2487

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I found that the SA-10 is not able to shoot down an AGM-88C missile if it is fired in PB mode. SA-10 (S-300PS) is a system that undoubtedly has the ability to fire anti-radar missiles. If the HARM is fired with TOO (SP) mode, it is almost always shot down. I am aware that PB mode HARM creates a different trajectory missile. The missile descends to the emitter at an angle of about 23 to 25 degrees. Which is not out of range of elevation angle tracking radar (30N6). The elevation angle at which the TR 30N6 antenna is able to scan is +/- 60 ° degrees.

 

One AGM-88C HARM missile was fired from the F/A-18 aircraft in PB mode (the missile was set to perform a loft (pullup HARM).  The target that was chosen was SR 5N66M (Clam Shell). The mission had a set function. Harm was detected by SA-10 at a distance of about 31 nm. However, the rotation of the antenna in the direction of arrival of the target missile TR 30N6 occurred only a few moments before the missile hit. The TR 30N6 antenna was oriented in the direction of arrival for some time because it had previously detected an aircraft that fired a HARM. Then, although the SA-10 sensors detected an approaching anti-radar missile, the antenna was rotated to the default position. The rotation of the antenna in the direction of the arrival of the Missile HARM did not occur until a few moments before the radar hit.

 

The test mission includes one F/A-18C aircraft, and 1x SA-10 (S-300 PS) in the following composition: 1x CP 54K6, 1 x SR 5N66M (Clam Shell), 1x SR 64H6E (Big Bird), 1 x TR 30N6 (Flap Lid A), 4x LN 5P85C.

 

Map: Caucasus.
Skill SA-10: Excellent

 

I consider described behavior under very strange. I think that the parameters of the missile's arrival are not beyond the capabilities of the SA-10.

SA-10 AGM-88C PB mode.trk DCS-SA-10 PB mode AGM-88C.zip.acmi

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Have you forced the alert status of the S300 to 'RED'?  Can't be certain but I suspect the reaction time may have something to do with this.

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This is clearly a HARM issue, as the problem occurs not only with the base S-300PS and SA-15, but also with SAMs from the HighDigitSAMs Mod and with Skynet. 

I would love to dig into the HARM files to see what they changed, but since they locked it this isn't an option unfortunately. 😕

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31 minutes ago, LetMePickThat said:

The SA-15 isn't engaging HARMs on my end.

 

Set their "alert state" to red, otherwise their reaction time is too long to shoot the HARMs. Also, the higher their AI level, the faster they react.


Edited by Mad_Shell
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I can confirm that SA-10 are engaging HARMs too but their effectiveness is affect by the speed of the missile at close range. With the new HARM's modes you can defeat them easily with the initial loft which provide high terminal speed.

 

I don't know if this behavior is accurate and represent the real specs of the SA-10.

Raidhen

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23 hours ago, VFA41_Lion said:

is "engage air weapons = on" set in the advanced unit actions in the mission editor?

 

I tried it but, unfortunately, without effect. The SA-10 did not fire on HARM.

 

10 hours ago, GGTharos said:

They may have reduced the RCS.   That would reduce the reaction time.

I don't know if they modified the RCS AGM-88C. But even in PB mode, HARM is detected by SA-10 at a distance of about 31 nm. If fired in TOO / SP mode, the SA-10 will shoot it down.
As far as I know, the AGM-88C has RCS set to 0.05m² in DCS.

 

5 hours ago, Raidhen said:

I can confirm that SA-10 are engaging HARMs too but their effectiveness is affect by the speed of the missile at close range. With the new HARM's modes you can defeat them easily with the initial loft which provide high terminal speed.

 

I don't know if this behavior is accurate and represent the real specs of the SA-10.

This bug report is about a HARM that was fired at maximum range at high altitude (see Tacview in the first post). Terminal speed was 617 kts TAS, M 0.93, pitch 25 °.  The HARM was definitely not outside the parameters of the SA-10. The SA-10 certainly has no problem shooting at supersonic targets. As I mentioned even though the HARM was not fired it was detected at a distance of about 31 NM.

 

I don't think there will be a problem with the acquisition time. The TR 30N6 has an acquisition time of 6 seconds. I have noticed this problem with other systems that have anti radiation missile capability. It will still check it and possibly process a separate bug report. Finally, please stick to the topic. This thread is about SA-10. SA-15 shoots down HARM in PB mode (tested). You just need to set the skill of the unit to excellent (this affects the acquisition time).

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1 hour ago, Martin2487 said:

This bug report is about a HARM that was fired at maximum range at high altitude (see Tacview in the first post). Terminal speed was 617 kts TAS, M 0.93, pitch 25 °.  The HARM was definitely not outside the parameters of the SA-10. The SA-10 certainly has no problem shooting at supersonic targets. As I mentioned even though the HARM was not fired it was detected at a distance of about 31 NM.

 

I don't think there will be a problem with the acquisition time. The TR 30N6 has an acquisition time of 6 seconds. I have noticed this problem with other systems that have anti radiation missile capability. It will still check it and possibly process a separate bug report. Finally, please stick to the topic. This thread is about SA-10. SA-15 shoots down HARM in PB mode (tested). You just need to set the skill of the unit to excellent (this affects the acquisition time).

 

You can run a test in RUK sub-mode which has a flat trajectory, if you manage to keep your HARMs above M 1.00 within 6sec before impact the SA-10 will never engage it.

Raidhen

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On 4/20/2021 at 4:23 PM, Martin2487 said:

I found that the SA-10 is not able to shoot down an AGM-88C missile if it is fired in PB mode. SA-10 (S-300PS) is a system that undoubtedly has the ability to fire anti-radar missiles. If the HARM is fired with TOO (SP) mode, it is almost always shot down. I am aware that PB mode HARM creates a different trajectory missile. The missile descends to the emitter at an angle of about 23 to 25 degrees. Which is not out of range of elevation angle tracking radar (30N6). The elevation angle at which the TR 30N6 antenna is able to scan is +/- 60 ° degrees.

 

One AGM-88C HARM missile was fired from the F/A-18 aircraft in PB mode (the missile was set to perform a loft (pullup HARM).  The target that was chosen was SR 5N66M (Clam Shell). The mission had a set function. Harm was detected by SA-10 at a distance of about 31 nm. However, the rotation of the antenna in the direction of arrival of the target missile TR 30N6 occurred only a few moments before the missile hit. The TR 30N6 antenna was oriented in the direction of arrival for some time because it had previously detected an aircraft that fired a HARM. Then, although the SA-10 sensors detected an approaching anti-radar missile, the antenna was rotated to the default position. The rotation of the antenna in the direction of the arrival of the Missile HARM did not occur until a few moments before the radar hit.

 

The test mission includes one F/A-18C aircraft, and 1x SA-10 (S-300 PS) in the following composition: 1x CP 54K6, 1 x SR 5N66M (Clam Shell), 1x SR 64H6E (Big Bird), 1 x TR 30N6 (Flap Lid A), 4x LN 5P85C.

 

Map: Caucasus.
Skill SA-10: Excellent

 

I consider described behavior under very strange. I think that the parameters of the missile's arrival are not beyond the capabilities of the SA-10.

SA-10 AGM-88C PB mode.trk 239.24 kB · 2 downloads DCS-SA-10 PB mode AGM-88C.zip.acmi 86.08 kB · 1 download

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