Mark Points

[Mirage2425]

Would it be possible to place Mark Points high on your list of priorities for the Viper?  Just basic Mark points, integration with the datalink can come later.  It would be a quick win, you already have much of what you would need already in place.  Mark points from the HUD use VIS mode so you could pull that right from the Maverick.  You should also have the coordinates from where the sensors are pointing, in particular the TGP as we don't have A2G radar yet.  Steerpoints can be created manually so it probably wouldn't take much to save the steerpoints in one of the slots dedicated for Mark points (26-34, I think).  I'm just an end user and I don't understand the complexities of what you are working with.  However, as I said above, it may be a quick win for you.  I'm sure many Viper pilots would really appreciate it.  Many of us want core features to be completed before more weapons. Thank-you for considering my suggestion.

[SpaceMonkey037]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:09 AM, Mirage2425 said:

Would it be possible to place Mark Points high on your list of priorities for the Viper?  Just basic Mark points, integration with the datalink can come later.  It would be a quick win, you already have much of what you would need already in place.  Mark points from the HUD use VIS mode so you could pull that right from the Maverick.  You should also have the coordinates from where the sensors are pointing, in particular the TGP as we don't have A2G radar yet.  Steerpoints can be created manually so it probably wouldn't take much to save the steerpoints in one of the slots dedicated for Mark points (26-34, I think).  I'm just an end user and I don't understand the complexities of what you are working with.  However, as I said above, it may be a quick win for you.  I'm sure many Viper pilots would really appreciate it.  Many of us want core features to be completed before more weapons. Thank-you for considering my suggestion.

I think the problem with integrating mark point into dcs is that SPI isn't applied in-game like it is IRL, this causes complications. Btw, mark paoints are steerpoints 26-30  <-- and this is the second problem with integrating markpoints. Right now the steerpoint system is really simple. Every steerpoint works like a NAV steerpoint (very simple version of NAV steerpoints that is). IRL it's only steerpoints 1-25 who are NAV route steerpoints, while in game all 127 steerpoints are NAV route steerpoints. For markpoints to be integrated correctly it would require an improvement in the steerpoint system. 
You might ask "Why does it require an improvement in the steerpoint system? Just make it possible to "quick add" steerpoints using the mark feature.", and the answer to that is that mark points don't function like normal NAV route steerpoints. The only actual difference is the way the function on the HSD, they show up as X instead of the usual NAV route steerpoints O. They also don't have NAV routes connecting them. For "quick add" to be possible without an improved steerpoint system means that steerpoints 26-30 will function completely different to the rest, and this would be very strange. My take on this is that you either fix the entire steerpoint system, or you leave it as is. You can't mix mach things as that would create more problems than solutions because of the incorrect base model for the steerpoint system.

The next step in the steerpoint system requires the integration of DTC as most of the settings are only programable through the DTC. This would then mean that realistically we probably won't see markpoints being introduced until we have DTC implemented and an improved steerpoint system to go with it. (this will take a long time)

Lastly, IRL mark points arent used as much as you might think. You can't simply mark random tanks on the ground and start bombing, as this would have a very high chance of friendly fire. For that reason you really do not want to fire upon something you've don't have confirmed coordinates for. Mark points main use from what I've understood is to serve as a way to save a SPI slew as a steerpoint (like you say).

Mark points definetly are a needed feature, but it will most likely require a lot of other improvement to be a good additoin. The steerpoint system beign so bare bones is one of my biggest issues in the sim currently. And I hope ED gets around to improving the system. 

 

[Mirage2425]

On 4/29/2021 at 12:07 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

I think the problem with integrating mark point into dcs is that SPI isn't applied in-game like it is IRL, this causes complications. Btw, mark paoints are steerpoints 26-30  <-- and this is the second problem with integrating markpoints. Right now the steerpoint system is really simple. Every steerpoint works like a NAV steerpoint (very simple version of NAV steerpoints that is). IRL it's only steerpoints 1-25 who are NAV route steerpoints, while in game all 127 steerpoints are NAV route steerpoints. For markpoints to be integrated correctly it would require an improvement in the steerpoint system. 
You might ask "Why does it require an improvement in the steerpoint system? Just make it possible to "quick add" steerpoints using the mark feature.", and the answer to that is that mark points don't function like normal NAV route steerpoints. The only actual difference is the way the function on the HSD, they show up as X instead of the usual NAV route steerpoints O. They also don't have NAV routes connecting them. For "quick add" to be possible without an improved steerpoint system means that steerpoints 26-30 will function completely different to the rest, and this would be very strange. My take on this is that you either fix the entire steerpoint system, or you leave it as is. You can't mix mach things as that would create more problems than solutions because of the incorrect base model for the steerpoint system.

The next step in the steerpoint system requires the integration of DTC as most of the settings are only programable through the DTC. This would then mean that realistically we probably won't see markpoints being introduced until we have DTC implemented and an improved steerpoint system to go with it. (this will take a long time)

Lastly, IRL mark points arent used as much as you might think. You can't simply mark random tanks on the ground and start bombing, as this would have a very high chance of friendly fire. For that reason you really do not want to fire upon something you've don't have confirmed coordinates for. Mark points main use from what I've understood is to serve as a way to save a SPI slew as a steerpoint (like you say).

Mark points definetly are a needed feature, but it will most likely require a lot of other improvement to be a good additoin. The steerpoint system beign so bare bones is one of my biggest issues in the sim currently. And I hope ED gets around to improving the system. 

 

Thank-you for the detailed explanation.  I understand, but am disappointed. I wanted to use steerpoints to mark SAM launches for SEAD/DEAD with Mav's or cluster bombs instead of HARMS.  I don't think the DTC is something that will be ready for a long time.  ED's focus is elsewhere.  So it may be a very long time before we see this feature.  I'm hope I'm pleasantly surprised but I think that's not very likely.  I also agree with you on the steerpoint system.  TGT's are another example and I'm not sure if offsets can be created.  The means no VRP/VIP functions for a while either.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Mirage2425

[Sternzy]

On 4/29/2021 at 3:07 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

Lastly, IRL mark points arent used as much as you might think. You can't simply mark random tanks on the ground and start bombing, as this would have a very high chance of friendly fire.

Can't you identify the target with your targeting pod?

[SpaceMonkey037]

On 5/16/2021 at 3:34 PM, Sternzy said:

Can't you identify the target with your targeting pod?

Not really. I don't know this for fact, but the TGP resolution isn't good enough to identify tank type reliably. The chance of friendly fire is way too high. If you want to attack non-preplanned targets your only real options are smoke highlighted targets, or you could use your TGP to find a laser which JTAC are lasing on a target. Coordinates given by a JTAC are also great for targeting.
In short: Smoke, laser and coordinates for non-planned targets.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SpaceMonkey037

[Northstar98]

On 4/29/2021 at 8:07 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

I think the problem with integrating mark point into dcs is that SPI isn't applied in-game like it is IRL, this causes complications. Btw, mark paoints are steerpoints 26-30  <-- and this is the second problem with integrating markpoints. Right now the steerpoint system is really simple. Every steerpoint works like a NAV steerpoint (very simple version of NAV steerpoints that is). IRL it's only steerpoints 1-25 who are NAV route steerpoints, while in game all 127 steerpoints are NAV route steerpoints. For markpoints to be integrated correctly it would require an improvement in the steerpoint system. 
You might ask "Why does it require an improvement in the steerpoint system? Just make it possible to "quick add" steerpoints using the mark feature.", and the answer to that is that mark points don't function like normal NAV route steerpoints. The only actual difference is the way the function on the HSD, they show up as X instead of the usual NAV route steerpoints O. They also don't have NAV routes connecting them. For "quick add" to be possible without an improved steerpoint system means that steerpoints 26-30 will function completely different to the rest, and this would be very strange. My take on this is that you either fix the entire steerpoint system, or you leave it as is. You can't mix mach things as that would create more problems than solutions because of the incorrect base model for the steerpoint system.

 

Absolutely this.

 

Though aren't flight plan steerpoints 1-24? I thought 25 was reserved for the bullseye?

 

But yes the F-16CM should have all of its steerpoints available and working how they do IRL. This also ties nicely into a DTC and a mission planning tool to edit it.

[llOPPOTATOll]

Bullseye can be any stpt 1-25

[SpaceMonkey037]

On 5/19/2021 at 12:28 PM, Northstar98 said:

 

Absolutely this.

 

Though aren't flight plan steerpoints 1-24? I thought 25 was reserved for the bullseye?

 

But yes the F-16CM should have all of its steerpoints available and working how they do IRL. This also ties nicely into a DTC and a mission planning tool to edit it.

For the older software versions that would be the case, but in our F-16 we have the BULL DED page. I am somewhat unsure about how it specifically works, but i think you can select a steerpoint from 1-25 to assign as bullseye.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SpaceMonkey037

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, SpaceMonkey037 said:

For the older software versions that would be the case, but in our F-16 we have the BULLS DED page which allows you to select any steerpoint from 1-25 as bullseye

 

Ahh, I see, thanks.

[divinee]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:07 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

I think the problem with integrating mark point into dcs is that SPI isn't applied in-game like it is IRL, this causes complications. Btw, mark paoints are steerpoints 26-30  <-- and this is the second problem with integrating markpoints. Right now the steerpoint system is really simple. Every steerpoint works like a NAV steerpoint (very simple version of NAV steerpoints that is). IRL it's only steerpoints 1-25 who are NAV route steerpoints, while in game all 127 steerpoints are NAV route steerpoints. For markpoints to be integrated correctly it would require an improvement in the steerpoint system. 
You might ask "Why does it require an improvement in the steerpoint system? Just make it possible to "quick add" steerpoints using the mark feature.", and the answer to that is that mark points don't function like normal NAV route steerpoints. The only actual difference is the way the function on the HSD, they show up as X instead of the usual NAV route steerpoints O. They also don't have NAV routes connecting them. For "quick add" to be possible without an improved steerpoint system means that steerpoints 26-30 will function completely different to the rest, and this would be very strange. My take on this is that you either fix the entire steerpoint system, or you leave it as is. You can't mix mach things as that would create more problems than solutions because of the incorrect base model for the steerpoint system.

The next step in the steerpoint system requires the integration of DTC as most of the settings are only programable through the DTC. This would then mean that realistically we probably won't see markpoints being introduced until we have DTC implemented and an improved steerpoint system to go with it. (this will take a long time)

Lastly, IRL mark points arent used as much as you might think. You can't simply mark random tanks on the ground and start bombing, as this would have a very high chance of friendly fire. For that reason you really do not want to fire upon something you've don't have confirmed coordinates for. Mark points main use from what I've understood is to serve as a way to save a SPI slew as a steerpoint (like you say).

Mark points definetly are a needed feature, but it will most likely require a lot of other improvement to be a good additoin. The steerpoint system beign so bare bones is one of my biggest issues in the sim currently. And I hope ED gets around to improving the system. 

 

Why it’s not possible to limit the number of the navpoints what we have now to 25 and then use 26-30 as markpoints almost like hornet does? All that is needed is changing of the icons in hsd and not using connecting lines. The rest of the points can be implemented when possible (like with dtc). Even that would be more usable and closer to real thing that what we have now?

 

edit: points 31-127 could be left as editable in mission editor so those could be used to limit areas etc. More work but still less than overhauling whole waypoint system and implementing data cartridge

Edited May 26, 2021 by divinee

[SpaceMonkey037]

10 hours ago, divinee said:

Why it’s not possible to limit the number of the navpoints what we have now to 25 and then use 26-30 as markpoints almost like hornet does? All that is needed is changing of the icons in hsd and not using connecting lines. The rest of the points can be implemented when possible (like with dtc). Even that would be more usable and closer to real thing that what we have now?

 

edit: points 31-127 could be left as editable in mission editor so those could be used to limit areas etc. More work but still less than overhauling whole waypoint system and implementing data cartridge

 

Hmm, yeah this might be a semi-solution. It would allow for markpoint to be added, however markpoints themself aren't an essential part of the aircraft. So ED might save the efforts and just go directly for markpoint implementation with the DTC. Out of my knowledge what exactly will happen, but my guess is this anways. 

[divinee]

12 minutes ago, SpaceMonkey037 said:

Hmm, yeah this might be a semi-solution. It would allow for markpoint to be added, however markpoints themself aren't an essential part of the aircraft. So ED might save the efforts and just go directly for markpoint implementation with the DTC. Out of my knowledge what exactly will happen, but my guess is this anways. 

It depends on how long it will take to implement that DTC. We haven't heard any news from it for quite a long time so i wouldn't expect it too soon. But yeah, there are more critical things in F-16 which should be implemented first but markpoints would just ease up some things quite a lot.

[SpaceMonkey037]

1 minute ago, divinee said:

It depends on how long it will take to implement that DTC. We haven't heard any news from it for quite a long time so i wouldn't expect it too soon. But yeah, there are more critical things in F-16 which should be implemented first but markpoints would just ease up some things quite a lot.

I am sure that DTC is going to be modelled very soon. It's a choke point in the progression of the aircraft, at least on the steerpoint side of things. 
I don't really see how it's going to "ease up" anything. The purpose that markpoints serve in dcs aren't very large.

[- Sonic -]

thant's will be fine to have also a recap ok steerpoints, markpoints and similar also in kneeboard automatically

Edited May 27, 2021 by L-1011

[Geraki]

Steerpoints
There are 1-99 possible steerpoints (STPTs). They are broken down as follows:
 Steerpoint assignments
STPT#Usage1-24 Navigation route / general flight planning
25 Bullseye (automatically assigned)
26-30 Ownship MARK points – small “x” (inverse video if selected)
31-54 HSD lines (4 lines with up to 6 points in each line)
56-70 Preplanned threats (PPTs saved to DTC during preflight planning)
71-80 Datalink MARK points – large “X” (inverse video if selected)
81-89 Open
90-99 Open / HARPOON waypoints
Steerpoint numbers 1-24 are regular flight planning ones for use in the Campaign or TE mission planning screen for an aircraft’s flight plan. Numbers 26-30 are reserved for MARK points created by the pilot.
The pilot may go to the Bullseye DED page (LIST 0 and select any steerpoint from 1-25 as bullseye, however the ‘normal’ campaign/TE bullseye is stored in STPT 25 by default. If the pilot chooses another steerpoint other than 25, AI aircraft and AWACS will still continue to use the BE as set by the campaign engine (i.e. the coordinates in STPT 25). Being able to select a specific steerpoint as your Bullseye is more useful for TE missions with human pilots involved, like Force on Force.
Note also that since all steerpoints can be edited in the STPT or DEST DED pages, you can overwrite your copy of the campaign Bullseye — be careful! For similar reasons, do not make flight plans with more than 24 STPTs.
STPT AUTO mode no longer wraps at the last STPT that is designated as part of your flight plan. The ▲▼arrows on the ICP will get you to any STPT from 1-99 as opposed to just those on your flight plan. Cycling to steerpoints not assigned will show all 0s in the latitude/longitude fields.
HSD lines now have up to 6 points available per line (it was 5 previously), with 4 lines available.

[FalcoGer]

On 6/3/2021 at 6:48 PM, Geraki said:

Steerpoints
There are 1-99 possible steerpoints (STPTs). They are broken down as follows:
 Steerpoint assignments
STPT#Usage1-24 Navigation route / general flight planning
25 Bullseye (automatically assigned)
26-30 Ownship MARK points – small “x” (inverse video if selected)
31-54 HSD lines (4 lines with up to 6 points in each line)
56-70 Preplanned threats (PPTs saved to DTC during preflight planning)
71-80 Datalink MARK points – large “X” (inverse video if selected)
81-89 Open
90-99 Open / HARPOON waypoints
Steerpoint numbers 1-24 are regular flight planning ones for use in the Campaign or TE mission planning screen for an aircraft’s flight plan. Numbers 26-30 are reserved for MARK points created by the pilot.
The pilot may go to the Bullseye DED page (LIST 0 and select any steerpoint from 1-25 as bullseye, however the ‘normal’ campaign/TE bullseye is stored in STPT 25 by default. If the pilot chooses another steerpoint other than 25, AI aircraft and AWACS will still continue to use the BE as set by the campaign engine (i.e. the coordinates in STPT 25). Being able to select a specific steerpoint as your Bullseye is more useful for TE missions with human pilots involved, like Force on Force.
Note also that since all steerpoints can be edited in the STPT or DEST DED pages, you can overwrite your copy of the campaign Bullseye — be careful! For similar reasons, do not make flight plans with more than 24 STPTs.
STPT AUTO mode no longer wraps at the last STPT that is designated as part of your flight plan. The ▲▼arrows on the ICP will get you to any STPT from 1-99 as opposed to just those on your flight plan. Cycling to steerpoints not assigned will show all 0s in the latitude/longitude fields.
HSD lines now have up to 6 points available per line (it was 5 previously), with 4 lines available.

I think you should clean up the post before copy pasting from another forum or a manual from a different game, which's mention will get you a warning on this forum because reasons
Also I'd really love if the PPT would be DTC loaded as steerpoints so you have a quick reference for harm shots and can rapidly select them as SPI.
I have no idea if said game models it realistically. I would assume so, but I couldn't find any actual f16 manuals that state those numbers.

So yeah, don't go on and talk about TEs and campaigns, campaign engines, actually good awacs or a good radio system in general that comes with the game, or stpt auto modes that were borked in a different game or changes that were made in a different game with steerpoint lines showing on the hsd there, where no such feature was ever implemented in dcs yet - though I'd love to see it. I love the idea of everything is a steerpoint and you can select/edit it as you want.

[FalcoGer]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:58 AM, SpaceMonkey037 said:

I am sure that DTC is going to be modelled very soon. It's a choke point in the progression of the aircraft, at least on the steerpoint side of things. 
I don't really see how it's going to "ease up" anything. The purpose that markpoints serve in dcs aren't very large.

What do you mean? Markpoints are awesome!

You can mark your targets from range as you fly in or circle your targets and mark them all without flying into the enemy engagement zone.
You can then set up your weapons onto those markpoints, for example in the f16 you could set them up with the ded jdam page (if that ever gets implemented) and dump 8 bombs in one pass.
You could send the markpoints to your wingmen or other link 16 participants.
you could do quick BDA and see what's left without slewing your targeting pod all over, doing the whole searching again.
you could quickly get the coordinates and read them to someone else.

Markpoints have their fair share of use and the use will get expanded as more functions are implemented.

[llOPPOTATOll]

On 6/3/2021 at 12:48 PM, Geraki said:

Steerpoints
There are 1-99 possible steerpoints (STPTs). They are broken down as follows:
 Steerpoint assignments
STPT#Usage1-24 Navigation route / general flight planning
25 Bullseye (automatically assigned)
26-30 Ownship MARK points – small “x” (inverse video if selected)
31-54 HSD lines (4 lines with up to 6 points in each line)
56-70 Preplanned threats (PPTs saved to DTC during preflight planning)
71-80 Datalink MARK points – large “X” (inverse video if selected)
81-89 Open
90-99 Open / HARPOON waypoints
Steerpoint numbers 1-24 are regular flight planning ones for use in the Campaign or TE mission planning screen for an aircraft’s flight plan. Numbers 26-30 are reserved for MARK points created by the pilot.
The pilot may go to the Bullseye DED page (LIST 0 and select any steerpoint from 1-25 as bullseye, however the ‘normal’ campaign/TE bullseye is stored in STPT 25 by default. If the pilot chooses another steerpoint other than 25, AI aircraft and AWACS will still continue to use the BE as set by the campaign engine (i.e. the coordinates in STPT 25). Being able to select a specific steerpoint as your Bullseye is more useful for TE missions with human pilots involved, like Force on Force.
Note also that since all steerpoints can be edited in the STPT or DEST DED pages, you can overwrite your copy of the campaign Bullseye — be careful! For similar reasons, do not make flight plans with more than 24 STPTs.
STPT AUTO mode no longer wraps at the last STPT that is designated as part of your flight plan. The ▲▼arrows on the ICP will get you to any STPT from 1-99 as opposed to just those on your flight plan. Cycling to steerpoints not assigned will show all 0s in the latitude/longitude fields.
HSD lines now have up to 6 points available per line (it was 5 previously), with 4 lines available.

In the tape were getting we have 127 steer points, not 99.