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AIM-120 Chaff spoof related issue


deathbysybian
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I haven't done 8v8's in a long time and the 'teamwork' part would probably be the biggest issue... 

I did some tests early today, going against 'ace' level AI and one thing I could consistently count on was bandits notching my radar by diving straight for the deck and diagonal when I fired my first 120 at R_max or less.  I always had to nudge my elevation down to reacquire. Then STT the bandit and fire another 120. In most tests, as soon as I reacquired the bandit, my first Amraam started tracking again. I'm guessing D/L updates are working now.

It seems like the 4 bar scan doesn't cover a lot when the bandit goes wild in the vertical. I my tests I could actually see the bandit 'dot' in the distance. Too far to lock him with ACM bore but... if you have your HMD on, you can go LACQ and point the circle at the bandit.

Here's one my quick tests:

https://youtu.be/jpCOYX7fq_U

 

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6 hours ago, deathbysybian said:

But why are the AI F18 completely wiped out by the enemy AI every time?  I don't think any of the friendly missiles hit, yet the enemy missiles almost always hit.

 

Who knows. Record it, then you can analyze it.  Maybe be there is a plan you can execute... maybe threre isn't:confused: 

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If you can give us a track of your 8v8 it would help a lot to work out what going on;

What are you up against?

what missiles are the opponents using?

are you asking your wingmen to attack?

 

I'll give the 8v8 a go in a bit when I'm free, but getting mopped like you describe sounds pretty nasty.

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Here's the update:

each hornet is carrying 2x120B, 2x9m, 4x7-m

you are up against 4-27's with -27ET and ER

Fight starts at about 17000ft

 

Hornets waste literally every 120B; they fire at 27 miles at 18 thousand at mach around 0.9. The shots all go to the lead -27 group, who just turn, defend and drop chaff. These missiles all miss because of bad parameter shots. Either the 27's bleed the speed out of the missile by flanking or going cold, or are lucky enough to evade with chaff + notching.

 

Next the -27's respond with the ET's and ER's, which have slightly better performance than the -7M in the now sub 20 mile range. They score quick kills due to having the now superior missile with the 120's wasted, and many hornets don't detect the ET launches and get smacked. 

Surviving -18's are firing back the -7M, but these are not fast enough inside the lofting parameters to beat the -77 and -27E's fired from the Russian jets, which are also flying significantly faster most of the time and thus have even better performance.

The -29's join around this point and mop up with their -77's 

 

I flew this about 4 times and lost each time. I don't think it's unrealistic either, given the Ai performance and missile quirks. I could get 3-4 kills before the remaining reds swarmed me, 2 with the 120B for sure, the other 2 being a toss up between the -7 and -9. A tip for using the -7 at those ranges is to set its mode to NORM, so it flies straight to the target instead of trying to loft which does more harm than good at 10 miles.

 

Simply put, the scenario here favours the Red side due to the Ai quirks. If blue didn't waste their missiles in bad parameter shots, they probably would get a good few kills. If the fight was higher, the Loft of the -7 would do more good, The 120's would have better range and possibly give them a chance.

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On 4/24/2021 at 10:59 AM, deathbysybian said:

I just did several F18 instant action : 8v8 BVR and was totally steamrolled each time.

None of the AI F18 killed a single red.  All the 18s were downed in a couple minutes.

Sense the 120 is the more superior missile in DCS (with some close contenders) I wouldn’t say nerfing is the problem (which hasn’t happened) but tactics is your issue.

 

Remember a F-16 is capable of putting the same Aim-120 in a better starting position then what a F-18 can. So you need to know what your limits are and what the other guys limits are.


Edited by Blinky.ben
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It's not just you.  I just put up an ace Mig 29A with no loadout and tried fighting it one-on-one with 6 120s.  Every time I am at 20,000-30,000 going about 400 knots and fire my first 120 around 20 miles, then 15, and then 10.  I then switched to AIM 9s and shot 2 at him within 3-5 miles.  Nothing hit.  He either notched perfectly every time or my missiles went dumb. I tried that about 10 times.  My lock kept dropping.  I even tried TWS and he immediately takes evasive maneuvers even though he shouldn't be getting a locked signal.  I then tried waiting until the In LAR switched to flashing SHOOT, but I had to get within 6.5 miles before I saw that even though we were on a head on course approaching at 1000+ knots.  I launched at 6.5 miles and my 120 still did not hit.  Something is definitely different, at least fighting the ace Mig 29As.  I even tried a couple of dogfights with it and all of my AIM 9s missed, but he was able to get on my six and never leave.  This is the first time I haven't been able to kill an AI Mig 29 and to get completely owned by it.  In the past I've been able to easily get AIM 120 kills farther than 30 miles and AIM 9 kills in dogfights.  Not anymore.


Edited by kelmcguir
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I even tried TWS and he immediately takes evasive maneuvers even though he shouldn't be getting a locked signal


I can confirm this. Distance doesnt matter. AI always immediately turn if it get shot at.

Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze

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It appears that, since 2.7 at least, AIM120s fired in TWS basically have a 0% hit chance against a manoeuvring target, and a 50% one at a non-defending target (I've had AMRAAMs miss when fired at an IL-76 from a distance of 3nm). And since wingmen no longer use STT but always rely on TWS, that's the problem right there. I also found in my missions that wingmen are basically useless.

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My in-game DCS settings (PD 1.0 OpenXR 100%):

 

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1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

It appears that, since 2.7 at least, AIM120s fired in TWS basically have a 0% hit chance against a manoeuvring target, and a 50% one at a non-defending target (I've had AMRAAMs miss when fired at an IL-76 from a distance of 3nm). And since wingmen no longer use STT but always rely on TWS, that's the problem right there. I also found in my missions that wingmen are basically useless.

Track?

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

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22 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

It appears that, since 2.7 at least, AIM120s fired in TWS basically have a 0% hit chance against a manoeuvring target,

This. It’s been reported but I don’t know the status. But I’ve played through that BVR 8x8 many times and yes, the AIM-120 is zero % effective outside of  Rne, it will not track on its own seeker when it goes active and will miss every time. 
 

 


Edited by SharpeXB
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On 4/23/2021 at 5:59 PM, deathbysybian said:

I just did several F18 instant action : 8v8 BVR and was totally steamrolled each time.

None of the AI F18 killed a single red.  All the 18s were downed in a couple minutes.

 

Yes, I found the same in 2.7.

 

https://forums.mudspike.com/t/dcs-2-7-aim-120-experiment/12394

 

I ran the Instant Action / 8v8 about 10 times now and it was never even close. I reversed the positions/speed of the mission (so sort of swapped red/blue teams) but same result. I also tried AIM-120C's instead but no luck. I tried making the AI wait to fire till closer but they still always miss.

 

Is it worth doing a track? The steps to recreate are:

 

1. Run Instant Action / Hornet / 8v8 BVR on DCS 2.7

2. Watch blue missile miss, except for maybe a -9 at the end.

 

BVR doesn't have to be 'balanced' but that seems a bit extreme, as it makes single player mission quite hard when playing blue.


Edited by fearlessfrog
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F/18  AIM120 are very uncappable and unreliable ..period


Edited by Peter22

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Sacarino, that's a good thought and I tried that.  I had it on xmit, rec, and stdby.  Even when the ECM is not emitting, my AIM 120s (especially in TWS) failed.  This last attempt, it took 5 120s to kill one Mig-29A at 10-20 miles.


Edited by kelmcguir
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On 4/27/2021 at 11:01 PM, nighthawk2174 said:

some F18 specific weirdness

Except that it happens in the F-16 as well: even in SAM mode, AMRAAMs don't hit anything.

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My in-game DCS settings (PD 1.0 OpenXR 100%):

 

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7 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

To all the people that think AIM-120 sucks: please try scoring a kill with an R-27 and you will soon realize that AMRAAM does not suck.

It's a very deadly missile and avoiding it is no easy business.

Try the 8v8 BVR instant action mission in the 18.

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Its against AI isnt it? AI has set of skill to do notch perfectly so I wouldnt be surprised. The AI also has a habit to shoot missile at almost max range so I don't think its 120 issue specifically. AI tactics has a pattern and you just need to observe it to defeat it IMO.

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22 hours ago, kelmcguir said:

Sacarino, that's a good thought and I tried that.  I had it on xmit, rec, and stdby.  Even when the ECM is not emitting, my AIM 120s (especially in TWS) failed.  This last attempt, it took 5 120s to kill one Mig-29A at 10-20 miles.

 

I heard someone saying that the reason for this is that the electrical system gets oversaturated with jamming (first priority) and radar. so the f18 cant handle both systems at once  ...Not too sure about that..

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