reported earlier PTRK with TPOD on moving targets

[Vanguard]

Making a separate thread since I hijacked Habu_69's and I'm talking about Litening and 65E, not ATFLIR and 65F...

 

Once again.. here is a full (1 min) video of the issue, could someone verify either what I'm doing wrong, or confirm this is a bug please...

YT Vid: Desert Convoys, Take 2

 

F/A-18C, Instant Action->Desert Convoys mission... unable to get PTRK on any moving target (with the exception of GMT->TPOD "handoff" that supposedly doesn't exist but totally does, at least in the sim)

 

I have included a customer version that simply moves the aircraft to 9nm to be repeatable...

 

Steps:

Engage Active Pause

Engage A/G mode

Enable GMT mode

Lock closest convoy

Switch to FLIR

Try to get PTRK on target

Change to FLIR from CCD

try again

adjust levels for more contrast

Try 50 more times

Result: Unable to lock anything with PTRK.FA-18C_IA_PG_Desert Convoys.miz

 

Appreciate if folks can try and confirm or point out the mistake.

 

miz attached

[ArjenHVA]

To me it looks like your switch to PTRK is too late. The pod needs some lead time to pick-up the track.

 

Example one: this one is quite close

Example two: this shows quite good how the PTRK behaves. 

 

[Vanguard]

Believe me, in some cases, I can PTRK 20 ft from the target and it snaps over, and it works 99/100 times. No idea what's different here. Sure I'm maybe being a bit lazy about it in the vid, but it's my 20th something time testing it, I have yet to PTRK a single target, ever, in this miz. Your example two is perfect is showing what is wrong. If I set to PTRK, early, the entire convoy will drive through the crosshairs and not be picked up.

 

Anyway, like I said, if someone could actually test it...

Edited April 25, 2021 by Vanguard

[Vanguard]

@BIGNEWY if not one soul cares to test it, can you just move this to bug reports?

[BIGNEWY]

I will take a look now 

 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

It looks fine to me. 

 

AG Mode

 

AG RADAR on right DDI 

tpod on Left DDI

make right DDI SOI 

GMT mode on radar 

find target Sensor control switch right locks target on radar

Tpod follows target

 

 

scs right.trk

[Vanguard]

Yes the TPOD is locking on to the GMT target, I can't PTRK any other target in the convoy, I can only lock the target that was "handed over" from GMT lock. Attached vid is only 1 min if you have time to take a look.

 

I posted step by step instructions, then you reply with step by step instruction different from my mine.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Vanguard

[maxTRX]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Yes the TPOD is locking on to the GMT target, I can't PTRK any other target in the convoy, I can only lock the target that was "handed over" from GMT lock. Attached vid is only 1 min if you have time to take a look.

 

I posted step by step instructions, then you reply with step by step instruction different from my mine.

 

 

To me it sounds like pre 2.7 behavior.  I know you mentioned in the other thread you are on 2.7 and the mission came with 2.7.

 

[Recluse]

I managed a couple of times to PTRK a different target from the original GMT track in Desert Convoys, but admittedly it was difficult and kind of a crap shoot. I did it in Active Pause, so doing it "for real" while flying would be even more difficult.  I thought at first it was the sand/dust being kicked up that was affecting things.

 

I did also try it on another mission I had with a moving convoy, but no dust trails and it was definitely easier to grab a different vehicle.

[Vanguard]

Watching gripes video again, at 2:37, it just snaps to the closest video.

https://youtu.be/S6yEUnI_Yr4?t=156

 

In my video, the entire convoy drives through the crosshairs and it doesn't pick up anything. @Recluse Would you conclude it's a bug, or is it realistically simulating something? I swear one time out of 10, I locked every target up 10 times over and couldn't miss locking something even if the crosshair wasn't close. Next time, I couldn't lock a single target after minutes of trying, so something's up, either the software, or between my chair and my keyboard.

 

[jackdaw]

18 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

It looks fine to me. 

 

AG Mode

 

AG RADAR on right DDI 

tpod on Left DDI

make right DDI SOI 

GMT mode on radar 

find target Sensor control switch right locks target on radar

Tpod follows target

 

 

scs right.trk 2.16 MB · 1 download

Please read the original post before replying, what you are stating is not the problem

[LastRifleRound]

This is definitely a thing. To see how much difference it makes, equip your jet with ATFLIR instead and initiate AUTO track. You'll get the expected result with that pod, but not with LITENING. I will upload a track later on of a mission at 12:00 hours, cloud preset 1 with winter conditions. LITENING is unable to PTRK even within 3nm, possibly ever (I'm not that good slewing the pod that close in)

[Recluse]

5 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Watching gripes video again, at 2:37, it just snaps to the closest video.

https://youtu.be/S6yEUnI_Yr4?t=156

 

In my video, the entire convoy drives through the crosshairs and it doesn't pick up anything. @Recluse Would you conclude it's a bug, or is it realistically simulating something? I swear one time out of 10, I locked every target up 10 times over and couldn't miss locking something even if the crosshair wasn't close. Next time, I couldn't lock a single target after minutes of trying, so something's up, either the software, or between my chair and my keyboard.

 

 

Not knowing how it works in REAL LIFE I couldn't say whether it is a bug or realistic. That said,  I am struggling NOW to come to grips with how it SHOULD work in DCS.

Apologies for the small aside, but this is my FLIR Moving Target Track Journey in a nutshell:

 

-  It used to be relatively simple to achieve a PTRK on a moving target by getting the FLIR in the general area using a Waypoint, VVSLV or other designation method and slewing the PTRK captains bars ahead of a mover. A little hit or miss but generally worked.

 

-SEA/GMT radar was a godsend!  No more searching around for the movers. GMTT/FTT track, FLIR is tracking, AGM-65F away.  Some issues with AGM-65E or GBU, because of the RADAR GIMBAL limits, when RDR shows up in the HUD as DES method, so have to slew the FLIR away and PTRK as above to make the FLIR the designated sensor with FLIR in the HUD. Worked well to do a pseudo-handoff.

 

-With your posts, as I have tested  Desert Convoys, it now seems that it is fine as long as you prosecute the initial targe from GMT.  the FLIR  PREFERS to lock onto the same target that the Radar had locked, even though the FLIR is now the operative sensor and everything should work as in the first bullet. THIS would be a BUG, IMHO if true.

 

- So there are two strange things going on now, the absurd difficulty in getting a moving PTRK under certain circumstances, and the difficulty in CHANGING targets from what was originally radar designated.  Not sure what to make of this.

 

-It seems to me that the ATFLIR does a  better job than the Litening.  In fact, I was suprised to see that in one mission, I got PTRK on a stationary vehicle and the AGM-65F I fired hit a neighboring vehicle causing the targeted vehicle to move. The ATFLIR actually KEPT TRACKING the vehicle as it moved and I was able to fire again and hit it. I don't recall the LITENING doing this, but maybe I never found myself in that particular situation.

 

- IT seems that the OFFSET cursor ought to be good for SOMETHING here, but darned if i could ever really find a reason to use if for anything.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Recluse

[AstonMartinDBS]

I'm unable to get a point track in this mission as well - not even under 2 nm.

 

This behaviour is related to an already reported bug for the LITENING II and ATFLIR for the Hornet. I hope, this issue will be fixed soon.

[maxTRX]

So far I haven't seen much difference in performance between Litening and ATFLIR.  

I did couple of tests with Litening only so far, in different weather/season in Caucasus. First mission was  set in January, 1700 local, 8 deg C. Nothing severe but there was some glare from the snow. The road was winding between trees with load of civilian traffic.  I wasn't able to get a PTRK until 3nm. Both FLIR and CCD were seeing similar contrast.

In summertime, 1700 local, 25 deg C, I was able to lock the same trucks at 8 nm.

Note:  When you want the GMT track to 'release' to FLIR, make sure you press TDC anywhere around the FLIR diamond once you switch sensor priority to FLIR. If you had your radar on one DDI and FLIR on the other, you'd see the track on the radar become  a brick with a cross on it. If you don't do this and just slew around on your FLIR screen, your GMT track is maintained.  Heck, once I get my PTRK, I press TDC on it... just to make sure .

[Recluse]

17 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

So far I haven't seen much difference in performance between Litening and ATFLIR.  

I did couple of tests with Litening only so far, in different weather/season in Caucasus. First mission was  set in January, 1700 local, 8 deg C. Nothing severe but there was some glare from the snow. The road was winding between trees with load of civilian traffic.  I wasn't able to get a PTRK until 3nm. Both FLIR and CCD were seeing similar contrast.

In summertime, 1700 local, 25 deg C, I was able to lock the same trucks at 8 nm.

Note:  When you want the GMT track to 'release' to FLIR, make sure you press TDC anywhere around the FLIR diamond once you switch sensor priority to FLIR. If you had your radar on one DDI and FLIR on the other, you'd see the track on the radar become  a brick with a cross on it. If you don't do this and just slew around on your FLIR screen, your GMT track is maintained.  Heck, once I get my PTRK, I press TDC on it... just to make sure .

 

I find myself pressing TDC A LOT..just to make sure.  In the HARRIER, I always feel like I am MISSING something by NOT needing to do it.  I might enable TDC Action/NO Action in AV8BNA Special Options just so the muscle memory transfers between aircraft.

[LastRifleRound]

I think it's really important to stress that if you have a GMTT and switch to the FLIR, the FLIR isn't tracking anything. It's just slaved to the system designation. This isn't a PTRK and does not count as the pod successfully tracking anything.

 

Until you explicitly activate PTRK (captain's bars), the FLIR isn't tracking a moving target.

[maxTRX]

28 minutes ago, LastRifleRound said:

I think it's really important to stress that if you have a GMTT and switch to the FLIR, the FLIR isn't tracking anything. It's just slaved to the system designation. This isn't a PTRK and does not count as the pod successfully tracking anything.

 

Until you explicitly activate PTRK (captain's bars), the FLIR isn't tracking a moving target.

 

Absolutely.

On a slightly different note. In DCS the FLIR sees enough 'contrast' of the movers from quite a distance. At 15 nm or even 20 nm, when zoomed in, if we can tell there's enough contrast when looking at the objects and recognize what they are, so can FLIR . Wouldn't you think that if FLIR had an issue distinguishing sufficient contrast, so would we.  As I was describing in my previous post, the FLIR was unable to grab a target until 3 nm, but the target's contrast was sharp and clear at 12 or further.  This was in winter dusk condition with snow glare from the sun setting and in real life the visibility at ground level would not be great. This should be reflected in the FLIR. I have to admit that at some angle the FLIR picture of the target blended with the road and CCD produced a better contrast. That looked realistic... at that moment.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Gripes323

[LastRifleRound]

1 minute ago, Gripes323 said:

 

Absolutely.

On a slightly different note. In DCS the FLIR sees enough 'contrast' to the movers from quite a distance. At 15 nm or even 20 nm, when zoomed in, if we can tell there's enough contrast when looking at the objects and recognize what they are, so can FLIR . Wouldn't you think that if FLIR had an issue distinguishing sufficient contrast, so would we.  As I was describing in my previous post, the FLIR was unable to grab a target until 3 nm, but the target's contrast was sharp and clear at 12 or further.  This was in winter dusk condition with snow glare from the sun setting and in real life the visibility at ground level would not be great. This should be reflected in the FLIR. I have to admit that at some angle the FLIR picture of the target blended with the road and CCD produced a better contrast. That looked realistic... at that moment.

I actually saw in Silver_Dragons roadmap thread they're working on IR signatures for ground objects, so maybe this is the sort of thing they were talking about.

[Vanguard]

@BIGNEWY Same question I guess, can you move this to bug reports?

 

Also, this is 100% reproducible with ATFLIR as well.

 

ATFLIR vid, same mission, just swapped the pod.
https://youtu.be/pvv9K7K4j0g

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Vanguard

[BIGNEWY]

OK it seems I overlooked this is already reported,

 

when I was testing I was using the dev build and work has already been done to improve it. 

 

We will see a fix for this in the future in public builds 

 

I will mark this reported here for now. 

 

thanks

[Vanguard]

Cool, thanks for the heads up.

[maxTRX]

18 hours ago, LastRifleRound said:

I actually saw in Silver_Dragons roadmap thread they're working on IR signatures for ground objects, so maybe this is the sort of thing they were talking about.

 

Some of it is already working decently, looking forward to full implementation. Well, the problem OP was having has been reported so that part is good.

I recorded some of the tough situations I mentioned in the above post in case you wanted to see it.

Depending on the angle of approach, the contrast varied a lot. In couple of attacks, the FLIR would not lock in spite of a clear picture. In other situations, the contrast was basically none.

 

https://youtu.be/aoM2FTRQGcM

 

[Vanguard]

@Gripes323 and @Recluse, Just wanted to say thanks for spending some time to take a look at my issue. Cheers. Fly Safe!

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Vanguard

[Recluse]

53 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

@Gripes323 and @Recluse, Just wanted to say thanks for spending some time to take a look at my issue. Cheers. Fly Safe!

 

 

 

THANK YOU for starting a good thread. I definitely learned stuff!!

 

BTW how is Desert Convoys going for you? The few times I tried it, I could never find the SAM convoy..but boy did they find ME!  I always ended up killing a ZSU and a few TELs in the main convoy. Had 2 bricks in GMT, but neither of them seemed to have the SA-11's. Will get back to it one of these days.