Notching AIM-120C [R-77], but still a hit

[skywalker22]

What do you guys say on notching 2nd R-77 missile here? I would say it was a notch, cannot get any better then this - but still a HIT!

Tacview-20210523-213336-DCS.zip.acmi

[RYS]

The MIG is supporting the missile till it reaches you. Maybe the seeker doesnt track but the Mig does.

[Killshot0597]

On 5/24/2021 at 3:44 AM, skywalker22 said:

What do you guys say on notching 2nd R-77 missile here? I would say it was a notch, cannot get any better then this - but still a HIT!

Tacview-20210523-213336-DCS.zip.acmi 82.98 kB · 7 downloads

You weren't in the notch, not only do you need to keep the emitter 90 degrees to your left or right. You also need to mask yourself with the ground clutter, you were co altitude with the missile so the missile had no other radar returns besides you. Also, if you had an ECM on, the missile could just be homing in on your jammer (I don't know if the M-2000C has any kind of ECM).

[Nealius]

20 hours ago, KIllshot0597 said:

You also need to mask yourself with the ground clutter, you were co altitude with the missile so the missile had no other radar returns besides you.

 

Not necessarily. Coaltitude AI drop off the player's radar screen in the doppler notch all the time. That's how the doppler notch works. Depending on the radar system there will be a filter for any closure rate below a certain speed. If the object gets within that limit it drops off the radar. The entire reason that filter exists in the first place is to filter out ground clutter. If ground clutter is already filtered out, then ground clutter as a variable for notching is a nonfactor. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Nealius

[Killshot0597]

49 minutes ago, Nealius said:

 

Not necessarily. Coaltitude AI drop off the player's radar screen in the doppler notch all the time. That's how the doppler notch works. Depending on the radar system there will be a filter for any closure rate below a certain speed. If the object gets within that limit it drops off the radar. The entire reason that filter exists in the first place is to filter out ground clutter. If ground clutter is already filtered out, then ground clutter as a variable for notching is a nonfactor. 

 

This is an amraam, not an aim-54. Even then, if you were on a lower altitude you'd be more obscured by the ground clutter. On co-altitude you could still notch a radar but is much harder since there is no ground for the radar to get clutter on. If the radar is coming from below, it should be impossible to notch it.

[Nealius]

25 minutes ago, KIllshot0597 said:

This is an amraam, not an aim-54. Even then, if you were on a lower altitude you'd be more obscured by the ground clutter. On co-altitude you could still notch a radar but is much harder since there is no ground for the radar to get clutter on. If the radar is coming from below, it should be impossible to notch it.

 

Are we talking about notching after Pitbull, or before Pitbull? I presume the latter, in which case the missile's radar is irrelevant. The supporting aircraft's radar is. Notching after Pitbull would be rather difficult as you have, what, five seconds before impact by then? Barely enough time to JETT and Split-S. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Nealius

[Killshot0597]

1 minute ago, Nealius said:

 

Are we talking about notching after Pitbull, or before Pitbull? I presume the latter, in which case the missile's radar is irrelevant. The supporting aircraft's radar is. 

Of course it's relevant....the missile has it's own radar too.

[Nealius]

4 minutes ago, KIllshot0597 said:

Of course it's relevant....the missile has it's own radar too.

 

The missile's radar is OFF until Pitbull. Therefore the missile's radar is irrelevant between launch and Pitbull (technically until Husky but DCS doesn't simulate Husky). 

 

In DCS context with my own experience against AI, something is fukky with effectiveness of AI missile guidance. AI can notch and defeat my missiles coaltitude simply by putting me on their 3/9 line. When I try the same tactic, I am unable to defeat the AI missiles. Something is unbalanced in the game mechanics. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Nealius

[Killshot0597]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

The missile's radar is OFF until Pitbull. Therefore the missile's radar is irrelevant between launch and Pitbull (technically until Husky but DCS doesn't simulate Husky). 

Did you check the Tacview? I'm referring to after pitbull. The missile was almost perfectly on the M-2000's 90 degrees. At that point the launching aircraft's radar doesnt matter. And it is possible to notch the AI, i do it pretty frequently.

To add, in the tacview the M-2000 was being very stingy with it's chaff. You'll need a lot of Chaff + notching to trash the misisle

Edited August 7, 2021 by KIllshot0597

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, KIllshot0597 said:

I'm referring to after pitbull.

 

I specifically asked this three posts ago.....

[nighthawk2174]

8 hours ago, KIllshot0597 said:

Did you check the Tacview? I'm referring to after pitbull. The missile was almost perfectly on the M-2000's 90 degrees. At that point the launching aircraft's radar doesnt matter. And it is possible to notch the AI, i do it pretty frequently.

To add, in the tacview the M-2000 was being very stingy with it's chaff. You'll need a lot of Chaff + notching to trash the misisle

 

Its not about position but relative radial velocity.  If its not below the doppler filter limit your not in the notch.