Odd radar performance with 2.7

[QuiGon]

I just flew the MiG-21 in 2.7 for the first time (haven't flown the MiG-21 for half a year actually) and was astonished by the performance of the radar. I flew on the Blue Flag Cold War server and was able to find literally EVERYONE within 30km on my radar. It didn't matter if the contacts where cold, hot, flanking or if they were above or below me. They always appeared on my radar immediately as soon as I pointed it towards them.

 

While this is was a great advantage (I could find them easily, was able to IFF them and could launch R-3R in their face), it seemed pretty unrealistic. Especially as all the fights were down in the weeds in the ground clutter and the radar picked them up just fine anyways. That's not how the radar used to work...

 

What happened and why has the Fishbed radar become such a formidable radar without any weaknesses?

Edited April 26, 2021 by QuiGon

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Probably WIP since ED already said they're working on the new clouds interference on radars and so on. Third parties probably has their own workflow, but they also have to sort out that new thing like everybody else.

 

S!

[QuiGon]

2 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Probably WIP since ED already said they're working on the new clouds interference on radars and so on. Third parties probably has their own workflow, but they also have to sort out that new thing like everybody else.

 

S!

 

Clouds aren't the issue here. I'm talking about general radar performance in clear weather, especially when close to the ground or in look down situations.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Yep, but clouds, ground clutter, everything, from a programmers' perspective is probably not different.

 

S!

[QuiGon]

Well, first things first: Can anyone else confirm that the radar in 2.7 is overperforming as described above or is that just a wrong impression on my side?

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by QuiGon

[CrazyGman]

 

On 4/26/2021 at 7:04 AM, QuiGon said:

Well, first things first: Can anyone else confirm that the radar in 2.7 is overperforming as described above or is that just a wrong impression on my side?

 

 

Well it's still can't look down really unless you are up high and they are only slightly below you and there is still nothing but sky behind them for a long long long distance but this was also the case before. Also like before,the tweaks to the radar have no effects on the aspect of target. It's a pulse radar so there is no notch filter, so targets as long they are above you or co-alt will not disappear regardless if they are cold, hot or flanking as there is no pulse-doppler notch filter for them to hide in. Works similar to the F-14 radar in pulse mode.

 

Unlike before It can now see targets that are at co-alt and slightly above you when you are near the deck, as long as there is no terrain behind them, before if you were near the deck and your target was under 500m it was not able to pick them up. Which is an advatage it didn't have, and now puts it more into what the F-5s radar can also detect targets.

Edited April 27, 2021 by CrazyGman

[QuiGon]

4 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

Unlike before It can now see targets that are at co-alt and slightly above you when you are near the deck, as long as there is no terrain behind them, before if you were near the deck and your target was under 500m it was not able to pick them up. Which is an advatage it didn't have, and now puts it more into what the F-5s radar can also detect targets.

 

Yeah, that seems to be the essential difference to previous versions.

[CrazyGman]

3 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

Yeah, that seems to be the essential difference to previous versions.

Don't get me wrong though, it is a game changer combined with the MiG's ability to IFF. I used the radar a decent amount before, now i use it all the time. R3Rs while still situational are more then just a gimmick now. Senior F-5 players will still be able to reliably defeat them, but they give you a head on option if R-60ms are off the table.

[Sideburns]

On 4/25/2021 at 10:17 PM, QuiGon said:

I just flew the MiG-21 in 2.7 for the first time (haven't flown the MiG-21 for half a year actually) and was astonished by the performance of the radar. I flew on the Blue Flag Cold War server and was able to find literally EVERYONE within 30km on my radar. It didn't matter if the contacts where cold, hot, flanking or if they were above or below me. They always appeared on my radar immediately as soon as I pointed it towards them.

 

While this is was a great advantage (I could find them easily, was able to IFF them and could launch R-3R in their face), it seemed pretty unrealistic. Especially as all the fights were down in the weeds in the ground clutter and the radar picked them up just fine anyways. That's not how the radar used to work...

 

What happened and why has the Fishbed radar become such a formidable radar without any weaknesses?

 

 

I have reported this in the bug section, with evidence in game and IRL but it hasn't yet been acknowledged afaik.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Sideburns

[ViFF]

I can confirm there are issues with the MiG-21 radar, and apart from what is reported above it is also affecting how the MiG-21 radar is showing up on other fighters' RWR.

 

This bug has already been reported in the Closed Beta group, and it is being addressed.

 

Bug was introduced on release of 2.7 and it is still there in current version 2.7.5659.

 

I tested together with Pikey and we tested vs various aircrafts' RWR: AV-8B, F-16, F-18, JF-17 (all flown by Pikey) vs MiG-21bis (flown by ViFF)

 

Results were always the same:

 

The adversary jet will get a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR at no more than 12 to 13 miles at the most and the MiG-21 radar nails is always only in search mode. No lock indication on the adversary fighter when the MiG-21 locks the radar on the target adversary.

 

The MiG-21 never becomes a priority threat on the RWR, even at very close range, under 2 miles.

 

In most cases the MiG-21 was able to pick up the adversary jet on his own radar scope before the adversary RWR was showing a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR.

 

When the MiG-21 closes in and achieves a radar lock, the adversary jet did not get a lock warning. Only launch warning of FOX-1 after the MiG has fired the R-3R.

 

I switched to F-5E and we tested again. The adversary jet picked up the F-5E nails on the RWR at the expected range of aprox 40 - 50 miles, and also reacted with lock indication when the F-5E locked them up.

 

The MiG-21 now has sneaky stealthy radar...  and the adversaries do not get any lock indication when the MiG-21 locks up a target in STT.

 

So now you can understand why its no surprise that you are seeing all these recent youtube videos from Hadwell how he is sneaking up on and killing everybody around him in GS, BF, 104th, etc

 

So to summarize:

 

Bug #1: The "21" nails/spike of a MiG-21 is showing up on other fighters' RWR at a very small range, essentially the same range that the MiG-21 is picking them up on his own radar, with the variance on detection range based on aspect being carried over to the RWR of the target aircraft.

 

It seems the two are tied together to show up at the same time on each other's opposing scope.

 

What's happening is that the RWR of the target will start seeing a "21" nails at aprox the same range the the radar scope of the MiG-21 is able to pick up the target.

 

Bug #2: When the MiG-21 has the radar locked on a target, there is no indication of a lock on the RWR of the target

 

Cheers!

Edited May 9, 2021 by ViFF

[Sideburns]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:39 PM, ViFF said:

I can confirm there are issues with the MiG-21 radar, and apart from what is reported above it is also affecting how the MiG-21 radar is showing up on other fighters' RWR.

 

This bug has already been reported in the Closed Beta group, and it is being addressed.

 

Bug was introduced on release of 2.7 and it is still there in current version 2.7.5659.

 

I tested together with Pikey and we tested vs various aircrafts' RWR: AV-8B, F-16, F-18, JF-17 (all flown by Pikey) vs MiG-21bis (flown by ViFF)

 

Results were always the same:

 

The adversary jet will get a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR at no more than 12 to 13 miles at the most and the MiG-21 radar nails is always only in search mode. No lock indication on the adversary fighter when the MiG-21 locks the radar on the target adversary.

 

The MiG-21 never becomes a priority threat on the RWR, even at very close range, under 2 miles.

 

In most cases the MiG-21 was able to pick up the adversary jet on his own radar scope before the adversary RWR was showing a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR.

 

When the MiG-21 closes in and achieves a radar lock, the adversary jet did not get a lock warning. Only launch warning of FOX-1 after the MiG has fired the R-3R.

 

I switched to F-5E and we tested again. The adversary jet picked up the F-5E nails on the RWR at the expected range of aprox 40 - 50 miles, and also reacted with lock indication when the F-5E locked them up.

 

The MiG-21 now has sneaky stealthy radar...  and the adversaries do not get any lock indication when the MiG-21 locks up a target in STT.

 

So now you can understand why its no surprise that you are seeing all these recent youtube videos from Hadwell how he is sneaking up on and killing everybody around him in GS, BF, 104th, etc

 

So to summarize:

 

Bug #1: The "21" nails/spike of a MiG-21 is showing up on other fighters' RWR at a very small range, essentially the same range that the MiG-21 is picking them up on his own radar, with the variance on detection range based on aspect being carried over to the RWR of the target aircraft.

 

It seems the two are tied together to show up at the same time on each other's opposing scope.

 

What's happening is that the RWR of the target will start seeing a "21" nails at aprox the same range the the radar scope of the MiG-21 is able to pick up the target.

 

Bug #2: When the MiG-21 has the radar locked on a target, there is no indication of a lock on the RWR of the target

 

Cheers!

 

 

Man, I didn't notice that. Good find / bug hunting!

 

As for the Hadwell / similar videos, he's not a bad pilot but if you hang around long enough on said servers you'll realise how long and how many deaths it takes your favourite youtubers to get their footage.

[Hadwell]

On 5/10/2021 at 8:02 AM, Sideburns said:

 

Man, I didn't notice that. Good find / bug hunting!

 

As for the Hadwell / similar videos, he's not a bad pilot but if you hang around long enough on said servers you'll realise how long and how many deaths it takes your favourite youtubers to get their footage.

it doesn't take forever to get kills in the mig-21... take a look at this, my k/d ratio isn't that bad, and the mig doesn't have nearly as much flight time as those other planes. also one of those deaths is a TK... with a 120c of course.

 

but yeah the radar does work too well... i thought i'd be able to see like the outlines of the mountains when im below them, like with the f-5's radar.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Hadwell

[Koty]

Well, F-5's radar is quite a bit different from the RP-22. F-5 has a simple pulse radar. RP-22 has actual monopulse illuminator. So using the radar down low is not as clear cut as it could seem. Part of the issue is how the clutter is displayed, on 21's screen it's massive splooches which are easily rejected visually, unlike the false returns on F-5's screen.

 

Second issue is finding actual data on clutter rejection. Different manuals can give you (in varying detail) description of the method used, but it might not give you the numbers.

 

While the detection range is a bit too high, it's not unrealistic to be able to send R-3R's in someone's face. You should still be able to detect something like an F-5 at 20-25km. Note that it would be less with the low altitude filters on - but still enough to send R-3R's in their face.

 

As far as I know, the radar's implementation had a lot of workarounds made at the time to work in the first place, hopefully it will get a redux in near future.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Koty

[Sideburns]

18 hours ago, Koty said:

Well, F-5's radar is quite a bit different from the RP-22. F-5 has a simple pulse radar. RP-22 has actual (albeit simple - to a point people will argue to death that it's achchually not PD radar) pulse-doppler filters. So using the radar down low is not as clear cut as it could seem. Part of the issue is how the clutter is displayed, on 21's screen it's massive splooches which are easily rejected visually, unlike the false returns on F-5's screen.

 

Second issue is finding actual data on clutter rejection. Different manuals can give you (in varying detail) description of the method used, but it might not give you the numbers.

 

While the detection range is a bit too high, it's not unrealistic to be able to send R-3R's in someone's face. You should still be able to detect something like an F-5 at 20-25km. Note that it would be less with the low altitude filters on - but still enough to send R-3R's in their face.

 

As far as I know, the radar's implementation had a lot of workarounds made at the time to work in the first place, hopefully it will get a redux in near future.

 

If you've got some evidence / information on the MiG21 radar I'd recommend adding it to the bug thread  

 

I'd also recommend reading some of the discussion there on the arguments for and against a range adjustment. I don't think anyone is suggesting the MiG21 shouldn't be able to shoot people in the face with the R3R, but the range seems too generous atm for that type and era of radar.

[QuiGon]

13 hours ago, Sideburns said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting the MiG21 shouldn't be able to shoot people in the face with the R3R, but the range seems too generous atm for that type and era of radar.

 

For me it's mostly the low level performance in ground clutter environment, which has been improved substantially in April this year, to a level where I wonder if this is realistic for such an old radar.

[StarLiner]

On 5/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, ViFF said:

I can confirm there are issues with the MiG-21 radar, and apart from what is reported above it is also affecting how the MiG-21 radar is showing up on other fighters' RWR.

 

This bug has already been reported in the Closed Beta group, and it is being addressed.

 

Bug was introduced on release of 2.7 and it is still there in current version 2.7.5659.

 

I tested together with Pikey and we tested vs various aircrafts' RWR: AV-8B, F-16, F-18, JF-17 (all flown by Pikey) vs MiG-21bis (flown by ViFF)

 

Results were always the same:

 

The adversary jet will get a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR at no more than 12 to 13 miles at the most and the MiG-21 radar nails is always only in search mode. No lock indication on the adversary fighter when the MiG-21 locks the radar on the target adversary.

 

The MiG-21 never becomes a priority threat on the RWR, even at very close range, under 2 miles.

 

In most cases the MiG-21 was able to pick up the adversary jet on his own radar scope before the adversary RWR was showing a MiG-21 nails indication on his RWR.

 

When the MiG-21 closes in and achieves a radar lock, the adversary jet did not get a lock warning. Only launch warning of FOX-1 after the MiG has fired the R-3R.

 

I switched to F-5E and we tested again. The adversary jet picked up the F-5E nails on the RWR at the expected range of aprox 40 - 50 miles, and also reacted with lock indication when the F-5E locked them up.

 

The MiG-21 now has sneaky stealthy radar...  and the adversaries do not get any lock indication when the MiG-21 locks up a target in STT.

 

So now you can understand why its no surprise that you are seeing all these recent youtube videos from Hadwell how he is sneaking up on and killing everybody around him in GS, BF, 104th, etc

 

So to summarize:

 

Bug #1: The "21" nails/spike of a MiG-21 is showing up on other fighters' RWR at a very small range, essentially the same range that the MiG-21 is picking them up on his own radar, with the variance on detection range based on aspect being carried over to the RWR of the target aircraft.

 

It seems the two are tied together to show up at the same time on each other's opposing scope.

 

What's happening is that the RWR of the target will start seeing a "21" nails at aprox the same range the the radar scope of the MiG-21 is able to pick up the target.

 

Bug #2: When the MiG-21 has the radar locked on a target, there is no indication of a lock on the RWR of the target

 

Cheers!

 

Howdy! May we have an update for this? The Mig21 still unfortunately doesn't produce a lock tone. I posted the issue on Mag3's bug tracker, and they said the issue is ED related.

 

This is quite an annoying bug on cold war servers in that it renders one of the F5's (and soon to be the Mirage's) main sensors useless.

The bug also breaks 'Jam on Lock' events in the mission editor for this aircraft.

 

With the Mirage coming out soon, we'll finally be able to have interesting, crappy fox 1 fights. Unfortunately, the mig will still be able to stealth lock the Mirage.

Edited May 24, 2022 by StarLiner