Please help me with trimming a warbird. i am new in DCS. Thank you

[Ravent]

Hi, I'm completely lost on how to trim a ww2 aircraft (p47 and p51 I guess it's the same principle for both).

 

I understand that I have three types of trimm, elevation ailerons and rudder. And mainly I have three gauges Bank Indicator , Turn& Slip Indicator and Vertical Speed Indicator (And everything is related to the speed and of course the lift of the plane). it is a lot of parameters simultaneously for a newbie.

 

I really can't get all three to remain relatively stable. Does anyone recommend any trick that works for you? or is there any order to facilitate the trimming?

 

I understand "The more you practice, the master you get" , but some order or tip or whatever are really welcome.

 

I don't want to keep flying like a roller coaster, up, then down, right and left. hehehehehehe

 

Thank you very much

[grafspee]

If it comes to P-51,

Don't touch  aileron trim, always trim rudder for side slip, then adjust pitch trim for level flight. Higher power or lower speed will require more right rudder trim.

Once your plane accelerate or decelerate from stable trim speed, it will affect side slip, side slip will affect horizontal stab this mean that pitch trim will be effected as well.

P-47 case is a little different, 1st trim is very sensitive in P-47. But to trim P-47 you need do same thing as for P-51 but after this part, you will need to set aileron trim as well to stop rolling.

P-51 is easy to trim, P-47 is very hard to trim fro level flight.

But mainly it all converge how good you know your plane.

If you want trimmed climb you need to know what speed what climb rate and power settings provide stable climb, any change in speed during climb will force you to constantly re-trim your plane.

Additional at low speed range and high power settings P-47 experience very strong nose oscillation after rapid stick movement, probably same with aggressive trim changes.

Edited April 26, 2021 by grafspee

[cromhunt]

Do you know what is meaning when talking about "induced roll".
This effect happens when you push the rudder ,because the yaw push a wing to accelerate and other to slow that is creating a roll to the same side of the pedals you push.
thus when you are piloting you may roll with the rudder pedals.
It's mainly the stuff to be understood to trim your aircraft.
first:
If you roll you will loose you stability in pitch,thus you will have to reset your trim.
Make some attempt from a stable flight without using the stick to roll.
second:
At each time you change the power you change the overturning couple,which make yaw your aircraft.
To resume:
maintain your power stable at flight level,begin by to trim your aircraft in yaw,then after in pitch.
After a while you will find that natural.
Don't use the trim in roll,besides you will see that some warbirds don't have it.

Last word think to set your rudder centered before setting the trim.Check out your needle ball.(turn&slip)

I hope it's help a bit

Edited April 27, 2021 by cromhunt

[Pikey]

Power>Attitude>Trim
Repeat

There's only one trim setting for every speed, so if you are changing speed you will be changing trim. Yes, its annoying, but equilibrium is a very unstable thing.

Once at stable speed
Trim your rudder (If available, remember the luftwaffe birds dont have rudder trim, they have pedal straps....ouch, so you can add rudder or vary the trim tabs in special options)
towards the ball until centred.
Counter the roll if you have that trim possibility
Trim for pitch
Observe speed changes (Often you get faster once you remove sideslip) and repeat.
I suspect you are asking because its a giant pain. In real life its easier, some planes are simply very stable, especially the civilian stuff that lacks the power. Trimming is often done with feel to make your hands feel less tired, so its far less annoying than the digital of a computer simulation.

[Silent Film]

In the beginning, I was trimming the pitch in Mustang just for landing, but now I don't bother to trim Mustang at all. If I want to fly it in a straight line, I just need to stabilize the stick, and with some speed it just goes straight by itself.

 

Thunderbolt is another story, I trim the rudder for take off, like it is automatically trimmed in hot start, and I also must trim the pitch just a little bit to bring the nose more up when flying around. But I don't recommend pitch trim in Thunderbolt for dogfight, because that way it becomes even more unstable in turning and jumps too quickly when I pull the stick.

[Captain Orso]

IMHO trim is not annoying. What is annoying is if I have to let go of the stick for a second and the aircraft goes *VVVVEEEEERRRRRRRROOOOOWWWWW" and suddenly I'm 30° nose up and flipping over - THAT's annoying.

 

Trimming is easy. On take off I always use the 5-6° right rudder, because it simply makes controlling the aircraft on takeoff easier IMHO. Once you're up, gears up, and you've reached above a couple hundred feet agl and over about 175 kts start to ease off the rudder trim while adjusting your rudder pedals appropriately and observing your slip indicator (the "ball"). At first you can use some heavier handed adjustments, easing off the closer to stable you get. Then just taps on the trim hat (I'm of course assuming you are using a trim hat on a HOTAS, but translate to whatever HW setup you use).

 

Then do the same with pitch trim until with hands off the stick your climb indicator remains centered and stable, and that's it. You are stable for that altitude, speed, and direction of flight.

 

After that simply maintain with tiny adjustments and  enjoy an relaxing flight. Do this regularly and it will become second nature and you basically don't think about it anymore; you just do it automatically.

[71st_Mastiff]

and most importantly don't forget to switch tanks..

[Captain Orso]

5 hours ago, 71st_Mastiff said:

and most importantly don't forget to switch tanks..

 

LOL true. Actual pilots used a trick, I was told. Switch every 10 minutes. Times starting with odd 10-minute digits (eg 11:10 am, 11:20 am, 11:30 pm, 4:40 pm - actually 1110, 1120, 2330, and 1640 in mil-time) use the left tank. Times with even 10-minute digits use the right tank. Even if you forget to switch, just look at your clock and you know which tank you should be using. Same goes for drop tanks of course.

[River]

On 5/3/2021 at 11:11 AM, Captain Orso said:

 

LOL true. Actual pilots used a trick, I was told. Switch every 10 minutes. Times starting with odd 10-minute digits (eg 11:10 am, 11:20 am, 11:30 pm, 4:40 pm - actually 1110, 1120, 2330, and 1640 in mil-time) use the left tank. Times with even 10-minute digits use the right tank. Even if you forget to switch, just look at your clock and you know which tank you should be using. Same goes for drop tanks of course.

 

Could you please rephrase your post about the fuel tank switching workflow? No offence but the explanation you gave and the examples makes no sence for me. I'd like to know, thank you. 

[Captain Orso]

Sorry for only just now getting back to you, brain like a siv, only good for noodles.

 

The basic rules of fuel-tank usage in the P-51 are:

- Alway startup and takeoff on the left tank. The carburetor fumes and overflow return line only goes to the left tank. If you use a different tank on takeoff you might be puting overflow into a full left tank which then has to vent it off into the environment through an overflow valve.

- Once airborne and in stable flight, if you have fuel in the fuselage tank, switch to that, because carrying fuel in it produces a disadvantageous shift of the Center Of Gravity rearwards, and since you have already used some fuel from the left tank so there is room for minor overflow to it and while flying within normal parameters below max-cruising speed it is very unlikely to get overflow. Using fuel in that tank first removes the COG issue.

In general you will never have fuel in the fuselage tank, unless the mission creator wanted to simulate a very long range mission, otherwise, per default it is always empty.

- The P-51 does not have a left-to-right-tank cross connection so if their fill levels become greatly uneven you will shift your COG to the heavier sided and cause an unsatisfactory flight behavior. To avoid this, you will switch between drawing fuel from the left and right tanks so that each is used about evenly. You can always look down at the fuel gauges below the front left and right corners of the seat on the floor to check their fill levers in level flight, but you should get into the habit of switching from one tank to the other in periodic intervals.

 

Using a simple scheme to determine which tank you use when will eliminate guessing and alleviate burden on the pilot.

- Switch ever 10 minutes. Look at your clock and note the minutes of the hour.

-- If the current time has the minutes value starting with an even digit (00-09, 20-29, 40-49) use the left tank.

-- If the current time has the minutes value starting with an odd digit (10-19, 30-39, 50-59) use the right tank. 

 

If through combat flight or periods of climb the tanks become noticeably unevenly filled, compensate by using the tank with more fuel for a longer period of time than the allocated 10 minutes until the tanks are evenly filled.

 

That's it. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll be happy to help you where I can.

[=475FG= Dawger]

When I flew airplanes that required switching fuel tanks, I just switched tanks at each quarter hour on the clock. The same technique works in the DCS P-51. No need to worry about which tank you are “supposed” to be on. If there is any doubt, just look at the gauge in level flight and switch to the tank with the most gas and resume switching when the minute hand is near 12, 3, 6 and 9. 

[scoobie]

On 5/3/2021 at 11:11 AM, Captain Orso said:

Times starting with odd 10-minute digits (...) use the left tank.

That's exactly why these forums are so worth reading!
Thanks for the great tip.
I was just about to create "fixed views" (those Ctrl-Num0, then tap NumX) for those damned fuel gauges as my ancient TrackIR 3 has a rather narrow field of view and likes to lose track when I look down there, on the floor.

I've concocted a mnemonic for that (by brain is rusty, so I must help it): "Left-handed (people) are odd" *) - so I know WHICH tank should be on when.
Bob's your uncle, I can remember the rest.

 

*) Obviously there's nothing odd in being left-handed, lots of people are.

[Loopan]

this may be a dumb question but I've to ask anyway.
I assigned the pitch- and aileron-trim to a 4-way switch at my virpil flightstick but it seems not to do anything in flight. shouldn't I see the trimm-wheels move when I use that switch? because they don't.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Loopan said:

this may be a dumb question but I've to ask anyway.
I assigned the pitch- and aileron-trim to a 4-way switch at my virpil flightstick but it seems not to do anything in flight. shouldn't I see the trimm-wheels move when I use that switch? because they don't.

 

It works on my end:

 

 

can you show a screen capture of how you have assigned the trim on your DCS?

 

[Loopan]

thank you for your help Rudel_chw!

Knowing - thanks to your video - that it should function an spin the weels, I recalibrated my flightstick and assigned everything new and now it works like a charm.
I love the DCS community, it's so helpful and patient with newbies like I'm one

[_Hoss]

On 4/26/2021 at 1:45 AM, Ravent said:

Hi, I'm completely lost on how to trim a ww2 aircraft (p47 and p51 I guess it's the same principle for both).

 

I understand that I have three types of trimm, elevation ailerons and rudder. And mainly I have three gauges Bank Indicator , Turn& Slip Indicator and Vertical Speed Indicator (And everything is related to the speed and of course the lift of the plane). it is a lot of parameters simultaneously for a newbie.

 

I really can't get all three to remain relatively stable. Does anyone recommend any trick that works for you? or is there any order to facilitate the trimming?

 

I understand "The more you practice, the master you get" , but some order or tip or whatever are really welcome.

 

I don't want to keep flying like a roller coaster, up, then down, right and left. hehehehehehe

 

Thank you very much

Roll/Pitch/Yaw........... Pitch and Yaw trim you will have the most workload with.  If you are using a TMWH put it on the trim switch on the stick.  I use the IN/OUT pinky switch, when it's OUT  I have Pitch and Yaw at hand, if it needs Roll trim I hit the pinky switch and go to IN and what was once Yaw trim is now Roll trim L/R.  WWII birds have props and internal combustion engines, every time you move that throttle for Manifold pressure, and the propeller pitch your torque changes, so there goes the nice straight and level trim you just set up.  You need to watch the slip indicator ball.  If it's left of center with no rudder input, use Left Yaw trim to center it, and vice versa.  Pitch trim is the same the faster you go the more it pitches the nose up.  All the DCS WWII birds, P-51 and P-47 have the gyro gunsight, so there is no slip/ball indicator underneath it which is always in your field of view so you can correct yaw, and watch it while you are going thru maneuvers.  Find that ball and keep it in the center with rudder input while dog fighting and in the center with yaw trim while flying normally.  relax the stick, does the nose lift or fall.................. trim accordingly.  Never forget just like a good battle plan it all goes out the window with first contact.

 

 

Good luck.

Hoss

[grafspee]

P-51 is probably the most stable plane in DCS ww2 it require a lot less trimming, most of the job you can do with rudder pedals, if you want for cruise you can trim P-51 to fly quite stable for extended period of time.

P-47 here the hustle starts, by using rudder trim pitch and roll are effected a lot, it require some experience to trim this for level flight, but even if you manage P-47 tends to drift away from trim a lot faster then P-51.

The most important is rudder trim while trimming it you need to maintain level flight via stick inputs.

Second thing in P-47 is that trim wheels control via buttons makes too big increments making it very difficult to trim, we need some slow mode for this buttons

Edited September 2, 2021 by grafspee

[cromhunt]

Already post somewhere on the forum.

I don't want to make offense nobody while saying what following.

 

Once more a difficulty encountered because of too sensitive coding of this simulation.

It's great but sometimes disturbing.

What you have to think is that each moves make something unstable.So you have in first to know what you move.

You have to aknowledge what happens.

And do it only with needle ball centered.
Before all remember that when you push a trim in any direction,you make the bird unstable and have to redo your settings.
Keep in mind that any change has an impact on stability.

While pushing rudder or trim rudder to left or right,you make a wing faster and the other slower and create inducted roll.

Thus you will loose your level.
Even if you let your rudder trim while thinking that it's right,maybe your aircraft is flying crabbing in the relative wind.

Thus one wing is faster than the other and your plane is unstable.
Check out your trim in flight to get the needle ball centered.Checkout your trim position.

Once done you may change the elevators trim.
You will see a more comfortable flight,and this is available with all ww2 modules.

Edited September 2, 2021 by cromhunt

[_Hoss]

10 hours ago, grafspee said:

P-51 is probably the most stable plane in DCS ww2 it require a lot less trimming, most of the job you can do with rudder pedals, if you want for cruise you can trim P-51 to fly quite stable for extended period of time.

P-47 here the hustle starts, by using rudder trim pitch and roll are effected a lot, it require some experience to trim this for level flight, but even if you manage P-47 tends to drift away from trim a lot faster then P-51.

The most important is rudder trim while trimming it you need to maintain level flight via stick inputs.

Second thing in P-47 is that trim wheels control via buttons makes too big increments making it very difficult to trim, we need some slow mode for this buttons

 

 

Something along the lines of how many lines does your mouse scroll down for each indent of the wheel.  you can set it to 2, 3, 4, etc in windows Control Panel.  Not sure how hard that would be to implement with a GUI setting in the Keyboard screen. 

[Tanuki44]

The ideal is mapping axis for each trim, with the adjustment of the curves, we can really refine the setting.

 

Especially since there is a response time in the flying dynamics.