Pitch control returning to neutral when flying with keyboard

[arb65912]

Let me chip in here one more time.

DCS is a great simulator or game whatever people want to call it BUT it is also a business.

Since it is a business, it is up to ED HOW they want to do business, it is not what customers want (which might be justified and needed or not) but what ED wants.

As simple as that, some users have a unbased idea that developers have to do things the way users want, no, it is business and if users do not like it, just do not buy it, period.

The whole discussion here is blown out of proportion, user asked if it can be implemented, I am sure ED guys saw it and IF they feel like it is a priority, they will implement, if not, they will not, a simple as that, no matter how much users will discuss here.

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, arb65912 said:

The whole discussion here is blown out of proportion

You must be new here  

That's all we do when not flying or designing missions 

And if you really want to stir up trouble, suggest some improvement to AAR.

[arb65912]

Just now, cfrag said:

You must be new here  

That's all we do when not flying or designing missions 

And if you really want to stir up trouble, suggest some improvement to AAR.

Yes, I am new here and sure, if that is what you do when not flying, enjoy it to the max!!!  lol 

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I think you’re veering off topic here…

I think you're confusing him with yourself. You're the one who took the topic down this route. Just because he's shredding your entire line of thinking doesn't mean that he's off topic, especially not when it's a topic you introduced by immediately throwing your argument-from-incredulity fallacy into the mix.

Just because you have no use for this QoL improvement of the game doesn't mean it's not worth-while. Quite the opposite. It only highlights how useful it must be if you're this scared of its implementation.  

Edited August 6, 2022 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Tippis said:

It only highlights how useful it must be if you're this scared of its implementation.

How could I be scared of it?  I’ll never fly this sim with a keyboard or be worried about someone else out-flying me with one…
 

The only ones who will be scared are new players reading this:

“To select the AIM-7, push forward on the Weapon Select Switch on the CONTROL STICK [LShift] + [W].” How many players do you think use multiple press key commands in a dogfight?! 

Edited August 6, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How could I be scared of it?

That is the question isn't it?

Probably because it would create more parity between players and this makes you worry that you'll be out-flown. Same as in every other instance where you've argued against improvements to other players' ability to play the game — improvements that would do nothing for you or to you.

You're always adamant to keep the other guy nerfed; you are equally adamant to never have things that affect you in the same way. There's really only one conclusion that can be drawn from this pattern.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Probably because it would create more parity between players and this makes you worry that you'll be out-flown.

I’m not worried

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I’m not worried

Your entire posting history says otherwise.

And on the vanishingly small chance that that's actually true, you have no reason to argue against this sensible fixing of an obvious oversight as a cheap and simple improvement to the game.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Your entire posting history says otherwise.

Well I do have a recurring theme of worry. But that worry is about ED spinning their wheels on silly requests. 

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Well I do have a recurring theme of worry. But that worry is about ED spinning their wheels on silly requests. 

If you have so little faith in ED's abilities to do something as ridiculously simple as adding a bind for a functionality that already exists, you should probably worry more about why you're even here. Fixing oversights is never silly.

[MAXsenna]

18 hours ago, arb65912 said:

Yes, I am new here and sure, if that is what you do when not flying, enjoy it to the max!!!  lol 

Hehe! Sarcasm is fun ain't it? 

Anyway, since you're new here, you might eventually come to the conclusion that we are a bunch of old married couples, so keep the popcorn handy.

 

[arb65912]

39 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Hehe! Sarcasm is fun ain't it? 

Anyway, since you're new here, you might eventually come to the conclusion that we are a bunch of old married couples, so keep the popcorn handy.

 

Sarcasm is fun for sure as long as one knows where to stop; you know what I mean.

Yes, I draw my conclusions already. 

It is typical, have seen it in many places, people just like to talk and have time doing it.

When the responses get too heated and personal, mods just lock the thread, nothing new, lol, lol.

Yes, it has been fun to read how people try to prove their point for sake of just an argument.

All good, as long as there is no fight, let people be happy.... talking. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by arb65912

[85th_Maverick]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:41 PM, SharpeXB said:

So putting several days of development time for something only one player wants doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

 

Several days of development...? Man, are you ok? Have you read what I shared above?

 

On 8/6/2022 at 6:07 PM, arb65912 said:

Sure, you can fly with keyboard if that is your preference, you can eat soup with fork as well. 

But since I believe that DCS is meant for more realistic way of flying, I agree that adding more advanced options for keyboard flying is a waste of resources.

There are tons of things ED is trying to address to make the simulation even better and they are doing a great job in my opinion.

Someone wants to try with keyboard, sure, have fun and see.

I also have a feeling that this thread will be locked soon.

 

What does realism mean to you? Using joystick? LOL! The definition of realism is about how well the simulator simulates stuff, not how it looks and what devices you use! Deka Ironworks made their JF-17 work flawlessly with keyboard and as perfectly as desired so you won't need a joystick if for whatever reason you don't want or can't use it such as trying to play outdoors using just the keys.

Oh man..., Deka should be punished now for proving that the coding took about an hour maximum from start to finish! Good work Deka and many thanks only to you on this subject!

Edited September 10, 2022 by 85th_Maverick

[arb65912]

Just now, 85th_Maverick said:

Several days of development...? Man, are you ok? Have you read what I

 

What does realism mean to you? Using joystick? LOL! The definition of realism is about how well the simulator simulates stuff, not how it looks and what devices you use! Deka Ironworks made their JF-17 work flawlessly with keyboard and as perfectly as desired so you won't need a joystick if for whatever reason you don't want or can't use it such as trying to play outdoors using just the keys.

Oh man..., Deka should be punished now for proving that the coding took about an hour maximum from start to finish! Good work Deka and many thanks only to you on this subject!

Realism to me means flying like I was flying real aircraft, with yoke or joystick, good flight model, realistic systems and good 3D model. That is realistic to me.

Using keyboard, hey, personal preference.

 

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

Several days of development...? Man, are you ok? Have you read what I

From your link “The tuning of command rates took some days”

[85th_Maverick]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:42 PM, arb65912 said:

Let me chip in here one more time.

DCS is a great simulator or game whatever people want to call it BUT it is also a business.

Since it is a business, it is up to ED HOW they want to do business, it is not what customers want (which might be justified and needed or not) but what ED wants.

As simple as that, some users have a unbased idea that developers have to do things the way users want, no, it is business and if users do not like it, just do not buy it, period.

The whole discussion here is blown out of proportion, user asked if it can be implemented, I am sure ED guys saw it and IF they feel like it is a priority, they will implement, if not, they will not, a simple as that, no matter how much users will discuss here.

You are talking off-topic. The business should not be affected by a 1 hour work to make something better for all customers and speaking of witch..., the customer should be a business man's boss if you will, cause that's where the money come from and yes..., the customer should be listened to first of all and only if something is absurd (and what I talk about here is nothing but simple and easy to do) should be discussed differently. So... NO..., a business man wouldn't do stuff only how he likes it and use the rule "if they want it they buy it as it is no matter how wrong things are" cause he won't last long! I had to respond to your off-topic views about business so you can understand that things are not as you think!

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

What does realism mean to you? Using joystick?

Suit yourself but your approach leaves you at the mercy of individual devs incorporation of commands that just don’t have any universal standard or behavior like joystick inputs do. 
I struggle to understand why you would persist with the keyboard. The eating soup with a fork analogy is spot on. 

3 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

the customer should be a business man's boss if you will

“Customer” in this case is plural, not singular. The problem with wanting things so particular is that you might not represent the majority. 

[85th_Maverick]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:42 PM, cfrag said:

On the contrary. What is the one thing people are guaranteed to have connected to their PC when they start DCS? A keyboard. 

More importantly, it's what people are guaranteed to have when they FIRST TRY DCS. People MUST have a good first-time experience when they try DCS, or they won't get hooked. You and I want them to get hooked. ED wants them to get hooked. Since DCS is a free-to-download game, it makes incredibly much business sense to put great thought into a minimal setup. And that is great support for keyboard/mouse flying neophytes and incoming future fellow flyers. People like you and I, who are already on the hook may have long since ascended to Virpil Controllers and VR Headsets. But that Su-25T must have great keyboard control, and since there are free 14 day trials, there better be good keyboard support for all the others. 

You and I don't need it. DCS needs it to be as attractive as possible to potential new players. 

Someone else who shares the same views! Many thanks for your effort to talk about this as well. When someone new tries this and sees how literally ugly the control is using the keys with Su-25T, he'll have a good chance to just skip it for something possibly worse without even trying to put any more effort in to convince himself that it's worth it or not.

Deka Ironworks made their JF-17 fly using just the arrow keys EXACTLY AS EVERYONE WOULD CONSIDER IT PERFECT and as they say it didn't take much at all because it wasn't anything complicate to code in there, just the wanting to do it and these are the kind of people that push DCS up in all aspects, not just by allowing people to properly fly with the damn keyboard but all in all by how they do things starting with the plane's incredibly realistic flight model.

[85th_Maverick]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:41 PM, SharpeXB said:

So putting several days of development time for something only one player wants doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

 

Why do you want to play blind?

I'll reply with this again and again until you are able to get it...:

You can keep saying that it's hard and it only makes you look bad! Seriously! I just don't have access to the coding of those few simple input constants cause I can assure that they'd all be tuned similarly to Deka's for ALL dcs aircraft in mostly one day. If some people are looking forward to do good things, one like you shows up to try ruining it!

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

I'll reply with this again and again until you are able to get it...:

I read it. This is what it says:

”Coding did not take long, like an hour maybe. The tuning of command rates took some days and I let other testers”

So it took several days and used other testers. Plural. So several days with several people. So it’s not instant and simple. Nothing in DCS is… that’s why these modules take years and years to make. 

[85th_Maverick]

19 minutes ago, arb65912 said:

Realism to me means flying like I was flying real aircraft, with yoke or joystick, good flight model, realistic systems and good 3D model. That is realistic to me.

Using keyboard, hey, personal preference.

 

Yes, the overall realism is divided into percentages from each of those that you've said and yes those percentages that add up to make the total realism are varying from person to person. For example, as an aerospace engineer and pilot I put most of the points for realism into accurate numbers, not graphics, not immersion, not fancy stuff, but good quality simulation...! Other people consider graphics and onboard systems simulation to be a benchmark for "realism"..., basically those people that are only "image" oriented. For me, a realistic simulator is that which can relatively accurately calculate what goes on with stuff, but that's just me and so the means by which I get to see it realistic (simulation oriented) won't matter as long as the outcome is just the same. It won't matter for me if use a keyboard or a joystick to find out how the plane behaves in certain conditions, but for people like you, yes, having more precise control over the inputs can lead to an increase in realism perception!

[85th_Maverick]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I read it. This is what it says:

”Coding did not take long, like an hour maybe. The tuning of command rates took some days and I let other testers”

So it took several days and used other testers. Plural. So several days with several people. So it’s not instant and simple. Nothing in DCS is… that’s why these modules take years and years to make. 

Man..., again, have you really understood what was he actually talking about? NOT SO IMPORTANT PERFECTION AND FINE TUNING WHICH I ALREADY SAID IT'S NOT NEEDED TO BOTHER WITH...! Several days..., wow...! You only read that and "voila"...! Fine tuning of "rates", "COMMAND RATES". You and I don't have to test it for days until we can find the best of the best delight rates. It only needs to be fast and simple! It can take even forever if you want to and never agree with X rate for a given input and every day you get into the code again and readjust the rate and test again and readjust again and again. That's not needed. Just put some damn fast stick rates which are similar to those on the JF-17 and that's it! THAT'S JUST IT! No input accelerations and deceleration (they are only there to make it look fancy but no pilot wants sluggish controls). Zero to that or "99999" whichever is the correct number to only simulate a constant and non-accelerated rate. Is it fair enough now?

[SharpeXB]

33 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

Man..., again, have you really understood what was he actually talking about? NOT SO IMPORTANT PERFECTION AND FINE TUNING WHICH I ALREADY SAID IT'S NOT NEEDED TO BOTHER WITH...! Several days..., wow...! You only read that and "voila"...! Fine tuning of "rates", "COMMAND RATES". You and I don't have to test it for days until we can find the best of the best delight rates. It only needs to be fast and simple! It can take even forever if you want to and never agree with X rate for a given input and every day you get into the code again and readjust the rate and test again and readjust again and again. That's not needed. Just put some damn fast stick rates which are similar to those on the JF-17 and that's it! THAT'S JUST IT! No input accelerations and deceleration (they are only there to make it look fancy but no pilot wants sluggish controls). Zero to that or "99999" whichever is the correct number to only simulate a constant and non-accelerated rate. Is it fair enough now?

You’re just looking for too much attention over a control scheme that very very few people use or are particular about. It’s a dilemma of your own making. 

[arb65912]

16 hours ago, 85th_Maverick said:

the customer should be a business man's boss if you will, cause that's where the money come from and yes..., the customer should be listened to first of all and only if something is absurd (and what I talk about here is nothing but simple and easy to do) should be discussed differently. So... NO..., a business man wouldn't do stuff only how he likes it and use the rule "if they want it they buy it as it is

Businessman will do things the way that are making business making profits regardless of what customers want, IF what users want makes the business more profitable.

And something simple and easy to do is subjective.

And from developer standpoint, they will do whatever is more important to realism of the simulation which using keyboard is definitely not a contributing factor.

Edited September 11, 2022 by arb65912

[arb65912]

6 hours ago, 85th_Maverick said:

It won't matter for me if use a keyboard or a joystick to find out how the plane behaves in certain conditions, but for people like you, yes, having more precise control over the inputs can lead to an increase in realism perception!

Isn't is about perception?

Chair pilots who make probably 90+% of the DCS users want to feel like they were the real pilots in a real aircraft so using keyboard is not even comparable to using joystick (or yoke depending on real life counterpart) to achieve that perception.

If you want to know the numbers, then yes, keyboard is much easier for sure.