Lack of maneuverability at altitude

[Nealius]

I understand the Mustang is supposed to be best suited for high altitude combat, in the 20,000ft range where the bombers they are escorting are. I also understand it to have poor maneuverability at or below 250mph.

 

 However with it firewalled at 61/3000 in the 20,000ft range I am barely able to acheive 270mph straight and level, effectively making the Mustang useless at these altitudes. Any more than 2G and I wing stall, meanwhile the 190s and 109s are happily shredding the bombers at sub-200mph speeds. 

 

Zoom-and-boom tactics don't seem to work because, again, I'm limited to 2G at the top of the zoom. With only 2G available any bandits I'm trying to boom on will be long gone by the time God's G allows me to put my nose on them.

 

At 15,000ft and lower I find fighting in the Mustang quite manageable. But how is one supposed to fight with such poor maneuverability up high where it should be quite good according to historical accounts?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Nealius

[grafspee]

P-51 is high alt fighter, but this does not mean that it can ignore laws of physics. At high alt turn ability will be reduced to average lover IAS and higher Mach number.

At high alt plane which handles at low speeds will gain a lot. For example spitfire, is very handicapped at low altitude, but once it climb higher, slow speed characteristic shine

Most planes at 30K are limited to only flat turns a high alt, Spitfire hold my bear, it does loops like nothing

Anyway, in combat plane performance plays secondary role, the most important thing is team work.

Iirc, 2 groups of fighter escort were deployed, one at bomber level and second couple thousand  above, be ready to jump on enemy fighters.

And p-51 light stick forces are no option to use against bf-109, not much G available at that point.

Edited May 9, 2021 by grafspee

[Nealius]

Is this just a problem of the AI defying physics? I will be pulling a smooth, steady, 3G slicing turn and then out of nowhere with zero buffet or warning I will suddenly snap roll. 

[grafspee]

I would say that AI flies perfect. So every single enemy plane when set at high difficulty flies like an ace.

On other side Player who has limited feed back from plane, tries to fly a plane close to edged of performance failing quite often.

I may even say that Ai flies so close to the limits, that probably no RL is capable of doing so

Edited May 9, 2021 by grafspee

[sublime]

On 5/9/2021 at 5:12 AM, Nealius said:

Is this just a problem of the AI defying physics? I will be pulling a smooth, steady, 3G slicing turn and then out of nowhere with zero buffet or warning I will suddenly snap roll. 

Also remember that you're at 270 *indicated* you're actually flying faster than that by groundspeed or TAS. 

I liken high altitude combat to someone drunk trying to find something in a dark room.  You have to do gentle movements; dogfighting almost seems to happen in slow motion... As bad as the p51 seems the opposition planes are most likely suffering more.  It may be easy for them to attack a b17 but they'll have real trouble fighting you.  Of course the AI is a computer and allegedly cheats so..

[Nealius]

Groundspeed and TAS are only valid for navigation and bomb employment. CAS/IAS is the only thing that matters when maneuvering. 

[rkk01]

Sounds to me like another example of the AI not being hampered by real world physics...???

[grafspee]

At high alt, maneuverability is reduced not only due to lower IAS but also due to higher mach.

So even when you fly 300 IAS available g load is lower at high alt.

Fights at high alt actually are quite fast, issue is that average turn radius is much larger  

[Flyer0001]

I am with you Nealius.  Although I find what Grafspee is typing to be very informative and interesting, this is not what I imagined when I bought the P-47 and P-51.  Granted my expectations are not the issue and learning about high altitude flying in WW II is one of the reasons I bought the planes - somehow I missed the - having to gingerly control the aircraft in the historical accounts of protecting bomber formations.  Even after practicing flying at high altitudes, if I manage to get behind a 109 or 190, they seem to dart away with incredible alacrity and agility while I am left rolling towards the ground if I try to follow them.  

[Theodore42]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:59 AM, Nealius said:

 However with it firewalled at 61/3000 in the 20,000ft range I am barely able to acheive 270mph straight and level, effectively making the Mustang useless at these altitudes. Any more than 2G and I wing stall, meanwhile the 190s and 109s are happily shredding the bombers at sub-200mph speeds. 

 

Check that that ball is centered in your turn indicator during your hi-G turn. It might be that you're pulling 6Gs, only sideways. The Mustang and especially the Jug need a lot of rudder inputs.

Practice max G turns by flying at any altitude at corner speed (250-270mph). Do a slice and keep your nose low enough to sustain 6Gs and corner speed. You should be able to corkscrew down while keeping the ball centered, and Gs and corner speed sustained. This will teach you how much rudder to use in a turn.

You don't want to do instantaneous turns like that in the Mustang however, as it is an energy fighter. I bought the Dora-9 after practicing dogfighting with the Mustang and that thing can point any direction it wants in the sky, at any time. It's ridiculous. I stopped trying to out-turn them in my Mustang after that.

 

On 5/9/2021 at 12:59 AM, Nealius said:

Zoom-and-boom tactics don't seem to work because, again, I'm limited to 2G at the top of the zoom. With only 2G available any bandits I'm trying to boom on will be long gone by the time God's G allows me to put my nose on them.

 

Yes, I made this mistake at first as well. It isn't "zoom-and-boom" but "boom-and-zoom." This difference is very important. The first and incorrect version implies the tactic is to accelerate very fast on your opponent ("zoom") and then "boom" him. The second version implies the correct tactic: attack your enemy and then zoom away from him (or his  wingman if you killed him).

The zooming away technique is where you can utilize one of the advantages of the Mustang: the laminar wings have relatively low drag at high speeds. After the "boom," sustain high speed as long as possible and pitch up a small amount. This will extend you away from your opponent while simultaneously making huge altitude gains on him because at high speeds you don't need to pitch up very high to climb at 6k fpm. The more time you spend sustaining high speeds in a shallow climb, the faster you'll gain energy on your opponent.

If you manage to boom your opponent at low speeds, this is fine, but just zoom down to a happy Mustang speed and then sustain a shallow zoom upward.

If you're escorting bombers then you'll always be able to zoom down on the enemy, but that isn't part of the "boom and zoom" tactic, it is more a part of the escort strategy.

 

To practice THIS is really fun: make a new mission and drop a Mustang in at 40,000ft. Practice a dive accelerating to max mach (whenever your control surfaces start getting stiff and things start shaking). Then practice your "zoom" technique by going into a shallow climb and see how much altitude you can gain back. Repeat to the deck.

This helps your high altitude dives (ie max speed in a dive = about 300mph indicated at 30,000ft and 400mph indicated at 20,000 ft.) Do this from 40,000 to the deck to learn the max dive speeds at all altitudes (VERY important for a warbird energy fighter!).

Note that in other warbird forums they laugh at dumb Mustang pilots diving away from them because basically any warbird can out accelerate a Mustang in a dive. This is true. But anything that follows you to compressibility is going to have lost a few control surfaces about 50mph back. So controlled high speed dives are very advantageous, as is the climb out, as long as it's efficient.

 

The most important maneuver for the Mustang and Jug to understand is probably the wingover. It is the most natural maneuver to execute at the end of a zoom tactic. It is simple: fly straight and level at cruise speed. Go into a climb. When you are going slow at the top of the maneuver, execute a 180 degree turn. These big, heavy airplanes will take the high alpha, turn it into a fast turn rate, and then dive back down heading the opposite direction, same altitude, same speed. It is a very efficient turn for big, heavy fighters.

Practice these by getting back to the reverse course at the same altitude and speed as soon as possible. With some practice you can shave a lot of time off this maneuver. Doing so teaches a lot about maneuvering warbirds. Note that a Dora-9 would never do this though, he can turn around at cruising speed just fine.

Now you can practice ending your zoom with a wingover to reengage.

 

 

I bet anyone doing just a dozen wingovers in a practice session: Time your maneuver from cruising speed, climb to reduce speed, turn around, dive back down to the same altitude and speed.

You won't think you're doing anything better but the times for the maneuver will get shorter and shorter. This isn't arbitrary; you are flying more and more efficiently.

 

Even modern energy fighters require a lot of thinking to dogfight. Usually it is in the form of managing speed to sustain Gs. Warbird energy fighters must do every maneuver with the idea to sustain speed. These maneuvers in my post give advantages at the edge of the envelope. Unfortunately, if you execute a tactically perfect dogfight in a warbird but your technique is all wrong, you will come away thinking that the strategies are wrong. If you climb too fast in the zoom you won't sustain your advantage long enough and it will feel like you did nothing. If your wingovers are sloppy it will feel like you executed a perfect zoom for nothing.

 

There is a lot of "flying" of warbirds that you don't have to do with modern aircraft.

[Nealius]

Rudder coordination is fine Ball is centered. That's not the problem. The problem is the Mustang, at least with player physics, being a princess while the AI are unfettered wolves. I suppose if I were playing against other players it would be more equal. 

 

I'm not a complete noob at the warbirds. I just find the talk about the Mustang being poor down low and great up high to be the exact opposite. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Nealius

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

Rudder coordination is fine Ball is centered. That's not the problem. The problem is the Mustang, at least with player physics, being a princess while the AI are unfettered wolves. I suppose if I were playing against other players it would be more equal. 

 

I'm not a complete noob at the warbirds. I just find the talk about the Mustang being poor down low and great up high to be the exact opposite. 

 

The biggest issue is the small amounts of stick deflection required to generate G. I recommend flying with the longest stick extension you can get and concentrate on smooth and small pitch movements until you get a feel for it. The difference between max performing the airplane and inducing an accelerated stall is razor thin, especially at altitude. 

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, pmiceli said:

The biggest issue is the small amounts of stick deflection required to generate G. I recommend flying with the longest stick extension you can get and concentrate on smooth and small pitch movements until you get a feel for it. The difference between max performing the airplane and inducing an accelerated stall is razor thin, especially at altitude. 

 

Running a 20cm extension with zero curves at the moment. Love the precision, but as you said that razor thin margin is a bugger. I assume in the real aircraft the pilot would be able to sense the edge of the envelope via stick forces or airframe buffet, but we don't get that in the sim. 

[grafspee]

I pretty much can sense edged of envelope in P-51, you can see that airframe start shaking + gun ports starts to whistle.

Take note that K-4 or D-9 weren't produced in great numbers, most of encounter reports are probably about engagement with G-6 or later iteration, which had db605as engine iirc.

DB605 in K-4 has improved supercharger, i cant remember is it just higher gear ratio or larger supercharger impeller, this improved high altitude performance significantly.

 If ED simulated it correctly, from my testing it looks that supercharger performance match the v-1650-7 alt performance. Both planes has almost identical critical altitude which is 25k ft to 27k ft depend on IAS.

Since at high alt P-51 is not able to utilize light stick forces to induce high G spikes like at low alt, often forcing K-4 to over shoot, better low speed handling of K-4 really changes things not in favor of P-51.

Another thing is that P-51D is the slowest, D brought no engine improvements in HP, B/C had same engine. Bubble canopy made P-51D a bit slower, this makes K-4 as fast as P-51.

All airplanes suffer at high alt, no matter is it ww1 or ww2 or modern planes.

About flying VR, i have never tried it, but i have watched couple of VR streams. My question is the picture so shaky in VR or is it only if you are watching it on streams. If it is i'm not surprised that you cant sens any feedback from plane, P-51 just before stall, shakes for short period.

Edited May 27, 2021 by grafspee

[=475FG= Dawger]

8 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

Running a 20cm extension with zero curves at the moment. Love the precision, but as you said that razor thin margin is a bugger. I assume in the real aircraft the pilot would be able to sense the edge of the envelope via stick forces or airframe buffet, but we don't get that in the sim. 

There is certainly a lot more feedback in a real airplane but, up high, everything including feedback from the airplane is greatly reduced in scale. Aircraft manufacturers go to great lengths to warn the pilot via aural and visual alerts. 

[Nealius]

5 hours ago, grafspee said:

About flying VR, i have never tried it, but i have watched couple of VR streams. My question is the picture so shaky in VR or is it only if you are watching it on streams. If it is i'm not surprised that you cant sens any feedback from plane, P-51 just before stall, shakes for short period.

 

The shakiness is usually the fault of the recording. It's not so shaky when you're looking through the goggles, but when you have the bandit on your lift vector in that bubble canopy there is no part of the airframe in your field of view, so even if the airframe starts to shake you won't be able to see it by nature of it being occluded from view. The F-14 has the same problem even with its incredibly exaggerated shake. You just can't see it unless you're looking at the canopy frame, and when you're padlocked on a bandit you will not be looking at anything but sky. In 20 hours of messing with combat in the P-51 I can't recall ever seeing it shake. The gunport whistle I do hear, but only down low. Up high I can't hear it at all. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Nealius

[grafspee]

I tried P-51 vs Bf-109 Ai Ace

Sorry i forgot to turn on recording so it starts in middle of fight, fight starts at 33k same energy for both. AI bf-109 dive to gain kinetic energy i stayed up high.

It ended up not too good for K-4

@Nealius as you can see airframe shake is clearly visible.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by grafspee

[Flyer0001]

Very impressive but this is not my experience.  Granted you are obviously a much better pilot.  But you let go with your first burst from your guns, tracers and all without registering any damage.  (I presume tracers are programmed to alert the pilot being attacked. Shaw's book)  The German fighter made no maneuver or jink.  Plus you brought him down from what looked like quite a distance.  (Again in Shaw's book the universal strategy is to get as close as you can before you hammer them with your 50s.)  How are you firing on an opponent without them jinking and scoring damage from what looks like far away?  I noticed you're zoomed out much more than I am.  Plus you are not using the gyroscopic sight.   

[Nealius]

6 hours ago, grafspee said:

I tried P-51 vs Bf-109 Ai Ace

Sorry i forgot to turn on recording so it starts in middle of fight, fight starts at 33k same energy for both. AI bf-109 dive to gain kinetic energy i stayed up high.

It ended up not too good for K-4

@Nealius as you can see airframe shake is clearly visible.

 

 

 

I see what you mean. The shake is very subtle, and I can see it if I'm looking straight ahead at the canopy frame. In VR, with my head straight up on my lift vector, unfortunatly the shake is 100% invisible. It really needs more aural effects like the Tomcat to make up for the lack of physical feedback that we can't feel through a screen. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Nealius

[grafspee]

6 hours ago, Flyer0001 said:

Very impressive but this is not my experience.  Granted you are obviously a much better pilot.  But you let go with your first burst from your guns, tracers and all without registering any damage.  (I presume tracers are programmed to alert the pilot being attacked. Shaw's book)  The German fighter made no maneuver or jink.  Plus you brought him down from what looked like quite a distance.  (Again in Shaw's book the universal strategy is to get as close as you can before you hammer them with your 50s.)  How are you firing on an opponent without them jinking and scoring damage from what looks like far away?  I noticed you're zoomed out much more than I am.  Plus you are not using the gyroscopic sight.   

Fight started at head on attitude, about 33k alt, just forgot to hit record in time  When we pass each other K-4 AI dive down, i decided to stay up doing circles at constant altitude.

First my shooting happen on the top of the loop so he could not do anything, beside he was pulling up as much as he could sorry but at this height you cant do much in that situation. As you can see that his strategy paid out, i could not close loop as tight as he so most of my shoots went below him. If he would do any additional maneuver, which would result in less tight loop i would smoke him in that first run. I don't know why he gave up later  But i watched hundreds of gun cams, i see that plane being shoot, often not doing any crazy maneuvers.

Firing guns in P-51 at very close range isn't beneficial, gun converge distance is about 1200ft-1500ft this the optimal distance.

I use gyro for shooting, but not here it was single fight with no intention to save ammo, just to show that P-51 is manageable at high alt.

After what i show you. You still don't understand. Whole my flight recorded was done at near max performance. I was pulling as hard as i could w/o stalling. Bf109 was doing same thing so understand that at 30k ft there is no quick peals off jinks or any other fancy things

Edited May 28, 2021 by grafspee

[Nealius]

For me personally, I find best egagement range to be between 600~800ft. Even though the conversion distance is 1200ft, I get much more reliable hits by moving in close and consantly adjusting the gunsight range. All of my kills are somewhere in that 600~800ft range. If I have my pipper dialed in correctly, even in a turn, watching the rounds tear up the enemy's fuselage is incredibly satisfying.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Nealius

[grafspee]

600-800 is still good, but if you go dead close like 200-300ft if you aim at fuselage, bullets will hit wings only if you bank a little you may miss every shoot

Edited May 28, 2021 by grafspee

[philstyle]

If you want to know how much of it is the AI's behavioral modelling, then you need to put the AI in the same aircraft as yourself.
How does the AI handle to P51 up at 28000ft, fighting against you also in a P51?

 

[grafspee]

2 hours ago, philstyle said:

If you want to know how much of it is the AI's behavioral modelling, then you need to put the AI in the same aircraft as yourself.
How does the AI handle to P51 up at 28000ft, fighting against you also in a P51?

 

Good idea. But i think that ai does not have any super powers like some ppl claims. If some has feelings that AI has super power than he must learn to fly better.

 

[philstyle]

Also, to the OP, do NOT take the defualt fuel load. Reduce it down to about 20%. That's loads of fuel in the P51 and will make the aircraft more longitudinally stable.