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Lack of maneuverability at altitude


Nealius

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On 5/26/2021 at 6:35 PM, Nealius said:

Rudder coordination is fine Ball is centered. That's not the problem. The problem is the Mustang, at least with player physics, being a princess while the AI are unfettered wolves. I suppose if I were playing against other players it would be more equal. 

 

I'm not a complete noob at the warbirds. I just find the talk about the Mustang being poor down low and great up high to be the exact opposite. 

 

 

Airplanes that turn better than the Mustang at low altitudes are going to turn better than the Mustang at high altitudes.

 

Mustang has a better supercharger, therefore mechanical energy advantage at high altitude.

Mustang handles Mach better, therefore max speed advantage.

Mustang has laminar wings, therefore superior retention of energy.

 

None of these things help the Mustang turn better but if you put all 3 of them together you get the "boom and zoom" strategy I was trying to describe in my post.

 

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I did test P-51 vs P-51 55% fuel load for both. Ace AI. No super powers detected.

 


Edited by grafspee
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System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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10 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

 

Airplanes that turn better than the Mustang at low altitudes are going to turn better than the Mustang at high altitudes.

 

Mustang has a better supercharger, therefore mechanical energy advantage at high altitude.

Mustang handles Mach better, therefore max speed advantage.

Mustang has laminar wings, therefore superior retention of energy.

 

None of these things help the Mustang turn better but if you put all 3 of them together you get the "boom and zoom" strategy I was trying to describe in my post.

 

 

Boom and zoom is still turning, just in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal. 

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On 5/29/2021 at 5:26 AM, Nealius said:

 

Boom and zoom is still turning, just in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal. 

Yes it is, but some plane do it better then other. AI simply sucks at high alt. In my test run i stalled my P-51 so many times that i cant remember, still being able to nail  P-51 AI.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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I watched your last video Grafspee and was impressed with your flying.  However, you didn't score a hit on the P-51 until you were below 10,000 feet.  Also, I need to see a dogfight against a FW-190D or a BF-109K4 at 23,000 feet.  I am not sure it will make a difference but this is what we are up against when protecting bomber formations.  Most of the campaign missions I fly at altitude are to protect bombers so you have to stay at altitude and not chase the enemy to lower altitudes.  Also do we know if the AI programming is the same for all planes:  allied and axis?  I must admit I seem to be doing better so I don't know if I have improved or ED has done some work on the AIs.  What still gets me is how well the FW-190 Dora can turn and climb at 23,000 feet when I am chasing it.  

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24 minutes ago, Flyer0001 said:

I watched your last video Grafspee and was impressed with your flying.  However, you didn't score a hit on the P-51 until you were below 10,000 feet.  Also, I need to see a dogfight against a FW-190D or a BF-109K4 at 23,000 feet.  I am not sure it will make a difference but this is what we are up against when protecting bomber formations.  Most of the campaign missions I fly at altitude are to protect bombers so you have to stay at altitude and not chase the enemy to lower altitudes.  Also do we know if the AI programming is the same for all planes:  allied and axis?  I must admit I seem to be doing better so I don't know if I have improved or ED has done some work on the AIs.  What still gets me is how well the FW-190 Dora can turn and climb at 23,000 feet when I am chasing it.  

Yeah he drag me down, i cant set AI to stay at 30k.

This is very good point, when you protecting bombers, you protect bombers so when any axis fighter will dive down you just stay up not going after him.

As you can see i can out turn AI at high alt, things changes at lower alt, seem that AI perform much better at low alt.

At 23k it will be much harder, but still hard to test it, since you cant tell AI to not go below 20k, AI much likely would dive.

Going back to Player vs AI as you can see i was able to kill P-51 despite fact that i stalled numerous times, so AI isn't that good after all, but things changes quick in PvP situation, sometimes Anton in good hands will be tough enemy to fight, not mentioning High performance Dora or Kurfurst.

My video was only for proofing that AI does obey laws of physics, so no flying UFOs which some ppl claim.

I say it, you just being better after every flight, AI is the same every time 🙂


Edited by grafspee
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System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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I appreciate your response.  My understanding from the historical accounts is the enemy might try to drag the fighters down to lower altitudes because they were inferior for most of the war at high altitudes.  Or at least the Axis did not have better planes for high altitude fighting in large enough numbers that would make a difference.  This is not what I am experiencing which is why I would  still like to see you take on an enemy plane at 23,000 feet.  There is a mission under the Instant Action under Channel where P-51s take on Doras at 23,000 feet in a Dogfight.  Granted the Dora was one of those planes made to meet enemy expectations of a high altitude fighter and came too late in the war.  However, if you can fight him even at altitude, you will have gone a long way with me in proving your point that enemy planes are not UFOs.


Edited by Flyer0001
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4 hours ago, grafspee said:

As you can see i can out turn AI at high alt, things changes at lower alt, seem that AI perform much better at low alt.

 

This is weird. I have out-turned AI Antons and K-4s at ~5,000ft in the Mustang with a little finesse and 1~2 notches of flaps. I wonder if their skill setting has something to do with it.

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55 minutes ago, Nealius said:

 

This is weird. I have out-turned AI Antons and K-4s at ~5,000ft in the Mustang with a little finesse and 1~2 notches of flaps. I wonder if their skill setting has something to do with it.

Skill setting impact ai set to ace level

 

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Ah, I avoid anything above Veteran because the physics get worse the higher the skill level you set. Rookie/Veteran are UFO-ish enough with perfect accuracy and knowledge of the player's velocity vector. They're like Agents in the Matrix. 

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Another P-51 vs Dora Ace Ai I let Dora to get on my 6, then i started the fight. Entry alt 23k ft.

P-51 50% fuel 9259 lbs. Dora 50% fuel 8777 lbs. 

I noticed as soon AI realize that im gaining on him he will instantly dive.

 

 


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Thanks for the video Grafspee and the time but this is not discounting what I have experienced.  And you are right, these planes seem to dive once they get into a fight so you can't stay at a high altitude.  I don't know how these missions are programmed but axis fighters seem to behave differently than what I witnessed in your video when they attack a bomber formation.  They seem to brush me off like a fly and then head to the formation with incredible speed and disperse the formation.  I thought I had observed some of this behavior in the Instant Action mission which is why I wanted you to try it but even then they seem to head to the ground fairly fast since there is no formation to go after.  

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Mission from campaign i can not speak for, don't know how it is set up what difficulty level is set.

But issue is definitely not here, P-51 is very good plane to fight at high altitude, is it easy no, it is hard to fly at high alt.

Maybe creator of the mission used custom AI difficult i don't know.

I set 4 Doras vs 4 b-17 + p-51 Ai escort rookie and P-51 me. All 4 doras attacked me then went straight for bombers, but i had absolutely no problem of catching up with Doras and shoot all of them down. I think it maybe the case of mismanaging your P-51 so it not perform as should be, more then UFO type axis planes, because i haven't experienced anything you described so far.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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We are writing about protecting and attacking bomber formations.  Probably the big reason planes are up that high.  Granted the attacking planes may try to draw off the fighters down low but the defenders have to stay with the bomber group.  The bombers are going to stay high rather than get clobbered by the flak.  

 

Grafspee-The experience has nothing to do with what I am doing.  Thank heaven - I am not that good of a pilot.  My experience in the past has been an amazing ability of enemy planes which can suddenly turn and climb with amazing speed at 23,000 feet.  I feel like the cop in the beginning of the movie, "The Matrix", standing on top and at the edge of building as Trinity and the agent are jumping across streets from building top to building top saying, "That's impossible."  I don't know why you have not experienced this.  I agree that we are dealing with a lot of variables, including time.  Maybe some things got fixed recently.  Lately, I have not been able to use the Simm as much as I would like.  Thank you for your time.

 

 


Edited by Flyer0001
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It was part of the allied escort doctrine that the fighters would stay with the bombers and let the enemy fighters go after they attacked the formation. They put a heavy emphasis on bombing aviation related manufacturing for air superiority.

 

Then General Doolittle was put in charge in Jan 1944 and he decided that the correct tactic for winning the air war was to shoot down airplanes, so the strategy of the 8th Airforce became to engage enemy aircraft, to the deck if necessary. He also developed the relay system of escort, so different fighters would be escorting the bombers on the different legs of the mission. This made abandoning the bombers to follow a guy to the deck a relatively safe tactic.

 

The P-51's Mach advantage gives a big advantage on the way to the deck. Keep in mind they will accelerate faster than you but your top speed is much higher.

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Make sure that RAM air is ON in your p-51, since 2.7 moving cockpit laver for cold air is not working, so you need to use axis to make it working.

RAM air will be crucial at alt above 20k.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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4 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

Then General Doolittle was put in charge in Jan 1944 and he decided that the correct tactic for winning the air war was to shoot down airplanes, so the strategy of the 8th Airforce became to engage enemy aircraft, to the deck if necessary. He also developed the relay system of escort, so different fighters would be escorting the bombers on the different legs of the mission. This made abandoning the bombers to follow a guy to the deck a relatively safe tactic.

 

 

I think that at this stage of the war the writing was on the wall for the Nazis forces so taking a kill for every encounter was worth doing to win the war of attrition. I would expect that earlier in the war when Nazi production of aircraft and pilots was still high staying with the formations would be doctrine to ensure delivery of bomb loads to get to the latter state of attrition.

 

 

 

$0.02


Edited by reece146
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