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MiG-23-98 Who has more info?


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On 5/9/2021 at 10:23 PM, G.J.S said:

While the -23 DID have a period of time where it was relevant, its too much of a dinosaur to be considered worthy of the expenditure that any of these upgrades would require.

 

 

 

The R-77:- THIS would give the -23 a reason to make other later gen aircraft respect its nose, but it would require an expensive radar set update to utilize, and nobody with any business acumen would allow that kind of expenditure on an antique when there are many other options in the late '90's.

 

And yet, there are countries, including some which could be considered middle income, who spent a lot upgrading their MiG-21's, sometimes even while phasing out MiG-29.

 

I assume that is because, contrary to the MiG-29 and possibly the MiG-23, the MiG-21 is relatively cheap to maintain and fly. I suppose the swing-wing mechanic of the MiG-23 could cause headaches, while in the MiG-29 you have two engines to maintain instead of one.

 

In any case, I don't think you can say "it's old and therefore scrap". There are more things to consider. Including problems with getting new fighters because of arms embargoes, where upgrade packages may easier slip through...

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Am 1.9.2021 um 18:02 schrieb Zpigman:

Edit: found more information, the one on the right is the IAF Mig-27 upgrade and the one on the left is pre upgrade. Sadly neither particularly the 98 refit. However there was apparently some talk about relaunching the 98 style rework for Syria’s fleet of 23s but it appeared that it went nowhere.


Thanks Mate, yes you are right, the one to the left looks indeed suspiciously like a vanilla MiG-27.

 

I also read about Angola and that these refits — potentially in combination with R-27 BVR missiles but I can find no pictures and almost no information on that. It’s bizarre.

 

Contrary there are plenty of pictures of MiG-21 Bison Upgrades or even 21-93 demonstrator aircraft. 
 

Just guessing now — but if the Upgrade for Angola was only the 98-3 upgrade it is entirely possible that the cockpit didn’t even change really. The -3 was just an additional device for the existing Saphir Radar to enable more modern missiles. It isn’t a great option though as it is additional weight and it does neither improve air-to-ground nor radar handling nor detection capabilities and situational awareness.

 

Depending on the source (which are all sketchy to be fair) the „full“ upgrade was only 1 million USD per piece - sounds like a bargain to me 

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:13 AM, Zpigman said:

images_2.jpgimages_1.jpg

Not sure What these are, the one on the right looks like a 21 lancer. Not sure what the one on the left is, any information would be good to have.

 

The one to the left is from a *much* bigger aircraft :) . Its the front(pilot) position of one of the MiG-31M test aircraft from the late 80'ies. Here is a bigger picture:

 

MiG-31M_front.jpg

 

Rear(WSO) position:

 

MiG-31M_rear.jpg

 

I have seen claims on the net, that they are from the more recent MiG-31BM upgrade, but as you can see the photos are quite old and I remember them from way back before the -BM upgrade came about.

 

 

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On 9/7/2021 at 10:58 AM, 1MajorKoenig said:


That one looks like e MiG-21-93 to me?

No look closer - e.g. the space at the front of the RH console where there is a display and compare it to the same place in the MiG-21-93 pit(very narrow with only a little gauge).

 

Also much of the MiG-21-93 cockpit instrumentation is "newer"..

 

mig-21-93_cockpit.jpg

 

..the HUD and compact gauges(ADI, IAS, pressure and radar altimeters and HSI) are similar to the ones fitted to the MiG-29M and MiG-29K test aircraft from late eighties, while despite being from the same age, the same instruments in the MiG-31M cockpit are of the older types. 


Edited by Seaeagle
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On 8/31/2021 at 2:08 PM, Zpigman said:

Found this picture, possibly a model 2 or 3 refit where almost everything is the same.

61C914FC-3CB1-4853-9E44-2D0D028A7E48.jpeg

 Neither are MiG-23's. The one on the left is a MiG-27K and the one on the right an upgraded MiG-27L.

Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

"If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"

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  • 4 months later...

I just stumbled across this here:

https://www.flightglobal.com/angola-awards-life-extension-contract-for-mig-23ml-fleet/59655.article
 

It sounds like the 23-98 upgrade in fact went into production! Not the scale of the 21-93 / Bison but at least one Air Force with 18 MiG-23MLs!

That would be in line with the rumours about Angolan MiG-23s carrying R-27 Missiles.

 

Interesting! Although by the sounds of it is seems like the most basic package 23-98-3


Edited by 1MajorKoenig
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10.05.2021 в 01:00, G.J.S сказал:

Yes it widens the envelope, providing you can still maintain a sight picture. If the TGT goes behind a -23's shoulders, he loses sight.

Yeah, that problem is also typical for a phantom. Anyway, MiG-23MLD had HMS, but only a few pilots actually installed it on their helmets. You know, peace time, weight issues

10.05.2021 в 01:00, G.J.S сказал:

Sort of. Having flown against Czech -23's before in a friendly capacity, good natured turn and burn providing training for both parties. Seen it, and had pilots re-living it and suggestions of how to stay out of "the burps" over bar discussions.

Well, if you flew MiG-23MLs than you know how MiG-23ML flies... Probably. On a cadet level.
But not and upgraded MLD which has additional whirl generators which improved maneuverability. Anyway

10.05.2021 в 01:00, G.J.S сказал:

You cant fight that which you cannot see . . . . 

If you're talking about WVR, it had visibility similar to a phantom. In BVR 23MLD was capable of detecting another MiG-23 from about 90km. A little quote from a russian test pilot

"Дальность обнаружения С-23МЛА-2 в свободном пространстве по однотипному самолету 75-80 км. Я неоднократно обнаруживал цель в ППС в свободном пространстве на дальности 85-90 км, на обрезе шкалы дальности."

10.05.2021 в 01:00, G.J.S сказал:

Low level - high speed, it would have caused even Tornado a headache, that was where it really came into its own, fast and straight. At lower levels was where its turn performance was better - but still it was woefully ungifted. 

There is an old, but interesting comparison of 23ML and F-4E here, on DCS forum. The info was taken from flight manuals. 23ML and F-4e block 50 maneuverability was the same...ish. 
And that's ML, not MLD/23-98 
 

Цитата

 

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28 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

 

Well, if you flew MiG-23MLs than you know how MiG-23ML flies... Probably. On a cadet level.
But not and upgraded MLD which has additional whirl generators which improved maneuverability. Anyway

 

I have never flown in a Mig, I have sparred AGAINST MiG-23ML that were (then) in Czech service - we are talking a little over 30 years ago now!

However, I have seen the performance of the ML in mock combat, and although sprightly, was a 'relatively' easy lunch. It was at its best in slashing attacks - quick in > very quick out. But if it stayed around to turn a bit, it invariably lost.


Edited by G.J.S

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14 часов назад, G.J.S сказал:

I have never flown in a Mig, I have sparred AGAINST MiG-23ML that were (then) in Czech service - we are talking a little over 30 years ago now!

However, I have seen the performance of the ML in mock combat, and although sprightly, was a 'relatively' easy lunch. It was at its best in slashing attacks - quick in > very quick out. But if it stayed around to turn a bit, it invariably lost.

 

My bad, must've misread

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On 9/8/2021 at 4:42 PM, Seaeagle said:

I have seen claims on the net, that they are from the more recent MiG-31BM upgrade, but as you can see the photos are quite old and I remember them from way back before the -BM upgrade came about.

Apparently, they are from a BM, but the earlier BM proposal from the 90s (Izdeliye 01BM) which was multirole capable (Blue 58 according to the Yefim Gordon's book).

According to photos presented in the book, the pilot's cockpit of MiG-31M had no MFD, but a radar scope repeater of sorts.


Edited by Dudikoff

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