WOW. Harrier engine changes: Has our hover ability been nerfed?

[Xpendable]

As someone who has dedicated to flying the Harrier for the past 2 years, I was surprised by recent performance changes to the engine in one of the last 2 patches (not sure which one did it).  It feels like a "nerf" to me in the area of hovering.  I've always thought that the Razbam Harrier was not accurate in some areas of the hover, as I don't think I should be able to hover indefinitely without overheating the engine.  Anyway, now a hover does not even seem to be possible unless you are carrying nothing and less than 3.8 on the fuel (without water).  I used to be able to hover at 5.7 to 5.9 without water and have 2 smoke pods on, but this does not seem possible anymore.  With water I can get up, but the water disappears very quickly and then you crash.   Just wondering if the hover capability is more realistic now or if it's way off.  I'm honestly not sure.  I do know that I can no longer perform the airshows that I used to perform - at least not the way that I had done them.  I supposed I could get away with something if I'm carrying almost no fuel.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Xpendable
"Gentler" tone

[Vakarian]

They did fix it. It was ridicuously overpowered before latest update.

 

Look here at the comparison charts to see how badly did Harrier overperform until latest update:

 

[Xpendable]

Well in the process they nerfed the VTOL capability.  I was able to hover it without water after reducing fuel to 3600, and not much room for error.  Doesn't seem right.

[Dunx]

They didn't fix it. Hover is no longer viable.

[Xpendable]

Agree.  I am unable to perform any airshows with the Harrier, and my twitch channel was based on the Harrier, so I won't be live streaming anymore, either.  Again, not sure if this more realistic or not.  I dunno.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Xpendable

[ddwg72]

I didn't think it was right either till I went to the charts.  In the fleet, they almost never take off in a hover as they have to go up with so little fuel.  It is usually a STO.  You really have to look at the VRest pages now.  If you want to know required rpm to take off you can look at NFM-400 based on weight.

[Brainfreeze]

Near impossible to land vertically without water now, even with 40% fuel.   Cannot be right...can it?

[Dunx]

All hail the mighty charts

 

Sorry, I could not resist... Thunderf00t made me do it.

[Aernov]

Some pictures with real HUD during final moments (descent from hover) of VL:

Looks like dry schedule, 109 RPM/710 JPT (max thrust rating, time limited to 15 minutes)

Touchdown - third leg of JPT hexagon.

IN-game VL and VTO are very much possible with masses up to 21 000 lbs, they just limited by water and engine lift rating time. With good engine management you can do an STO from LHA deck with short lift wet and 28000+ lbs, and still have 380 lbs of water for VL on wet schedule, but you need to time the transition to hover right. And all NATOPS performance charts give short lift wet/dry as a condition for VTO/hover. The same hover trickery that was possible before in DCS is pretty much impossible now, or you need to carefully tune your mass and time your hovers and engine parameters.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Aernov

[Schmidtfire]

1 hour ago, Xpendable said:

Agree.  I am unable to perform any airshows with the Harrier, and my twitch channel was based on the Harrier, so I won't be live streaming anymore, either.  Unless they fix this, I'm done.  I will no longer be flying the Harrier.  

 

Im sorry you got attached to an unfinished flight model for 2 years, but changes had to be made to make it more realistic. You should now be able to make a more realistic airshow, just need to plan and practice with the new flight model. It's a good thing.

[Brainfreeze]

10 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

Im sorry you got attached to an unfinished flight model for 2 years, but changes had to be made to make it more realistic. You should now be able to make a more realistic airshow, just need to plan and practice with the new flight model. It's a good thing.

Well definitely a good thing that it is becoming more realistic but does not mean the hovering capability after this update is right either.  May need more tweaking. After all Hovering is kinda what the Harrier is all about

[Xpendable]

1 hour ago, Schmidtfire said:

Im sorry you got attached to an unfinished flight model for 2 years, but changes had to be made to make it more realistic. You should now be able to make a more realistic airshow, just need to plan and practice with the new flight model. It's a good thing.

 

Easier said than done, but so is the Harrier, in terms of flying. 

[JIGGAwest]

True, it may be more realistic in terms of weight effect on engine performance. Prior to the recent update I would almost exclusively vertical land with low fuel and empty ordinance. Engine performance has changed in my subjective opinion, and is more Difficult. I believe the current state is under powered for vertical landing and STO. Transitional lift and power seems to down quite a bit. I have no onions on realism, except for what I've seen at airshows in person. The real harrier seems to be much more powerful.

[Xpendable]

My only experience with the Harrier is also at airshows... I've seen the Harrier at EAA Airventure perform in Oshkosh, WI numerous times over the past 2 decades.  Of course that does not make me an expert or anything of the sort, LOL.  That pilot would hover a decent amount of time (and who knows how much fuel he had) and then VL, taxi away from the touchdown point and then let his JPT cool down for a couple of minutes before doing another takeoff.

[jib]

5 hours ago, Brainfreeze said:

Near impossible to land vertically without water now, even with 40% fuel.   Cannot be right...can it?

Why would the engineers have even needed to add the water injection system if it could land without water? Ever thought of that?

[Brainfreeze]

2 hours ago, jib said:

Why would the engineers have even needed to add the water injection system if it could land without water? Ever thought of that?

Because you need the extra power it gives when you are close to the weight limit.  With 30 or 40% fuel you are not near the weight limit.

 

I may stand corrected: Tested with 40% fuel... u can just about not use water if you are careful and very gentle with the throttle and stick.  maybe it is realistic... not sure as I am no former harrier pilot.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Brainfreeze

[jserdynski]

did some testing and if the gear are down or gear are up with speed brake extended allows it to hover (water on or off).  yawing increases the JPT, but will go back down when stopped (1500lbs fuel, no weapons)

 

 

[JIGGAwest]

Look at this nose dip on the harrier before landing. That thing is pegged in the air. I don't think we have this much thrust on the nozzles. 

 

 

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, JIGGAwest said:

Look at this nose dip on the harrier before landing. That thing is pegged in the air. I don't think we have this much thrust on the nozzles. 

 

As well small detail in it:

 

[Wisky]

landed with 900 pounds of fuel

[ddwg72]

Cool video of the TAV-8  118/119 RPM on that move

Edited May 11, 2021 by ddwg72

[Brainfreeze]

definitely more stable than when I am in the pilot seat! 

[Bog9y]

On 5/10/2021 at 5:49 PM, Xpendable said:

My only experience with the Harrier is also at airshows... I've seen the Harrier at EAA Airventure perform in Oshkosh, WI numerous times over the past 2 decades.  Of course that does not make me an expert or anything of the sort, LOL.  That pilot would hover a decent amount of time (and who knows how much fuel he had) and then VL, taxi away from the touchdown point and then let his JPT cool down for a couple of minutes before doing another takeoff.

 

On 5/10/2021 at 5:44 PM, JIGGAwest said:

True, it may be more realistic in terms of weight effect on engine performance. Prior to the recent update I would almost exclusively vertical land with low fuel and empty ordinance. Engine performance has changed in my subjective opinion, and is more Difficult. I believe the current state is under powered for vertical landing and STO. Transitional lift and power seems to down quite a bit. I have no onions on realism, except for what I've seen at airshows in person. The real harrier seems to be much more powerful.

Have a look at this video at 2:30.   Bear in mind, Art's plane is stripped out of avionics to make it even lighter than a standard Sea Harrier used to be.  For his airshow he fills up to 1800 lbs of fuel. And his engine is +2% on the engine datum, so it's more powerful than the average Pegasus.  

 

On 5/11/2021 at 8:32 PM, Fri13 said:

 

As well small detail in it:

 

Exactly this! I don't know why people are so annoyed that they can't hover with a full load out and full fuel. That was complete nonsense that Razbam has finally sorted out.  Now the jet is performing closer to reality.  

[Aernov]

Did anyone test how engine damage is modeled in our Harrier? 120% RPM is limited to 15 seconds, how would exceeding this time limit affect engine performance? Will it noticeably degrade if this overtime is like 5 seconds? Also, are there plans to enable engine life count dissipation (as an estimate of engine's probable datum deviation and it's resource/stress tolerance)?

[Fri13]

Tested quickly, only 4500 lbs fuel and I could hover just about with slight raising. 

Not a change to approach fast as you will sink.